y por qué no isidor?

por hotello (MA) 9/24/2004 12:57
Despite all accusations over here (true or false) and all
discussions, I do think all rules should be maintained.

This means Isidor, should get some support from us as well. Mostly
to get out all those childeren that are stalking his guestbook.

Please take a look around their, pick out the users from your
country and educate them about the following rule:

§8 Netiqette.
A matter of course is that we all behave in a good way and do not
threaten or write things, that can be understood as racist or
condescending, to other players. This is a rather buoyant judgment
so you can say that the basic rule is that you should behave as you
want other people to behave towards you, but to be on the safe side
you can behave even better. It won't hurt anyone. This is for the
comfort of everyone.

I hope we can all stop these childish actions!

/Anton
Vistas: 156 Mensajes: 29
Página 1

Re: Isidor's guestbook
por denitto (GA) 9/24/2004 13:05
I agree, let's do some thing about this, we should put out a news
item about the rule and start giving fines/suspension to users.

This is not acceptable and should ot be tolerated, and this
meaningless of what you can think of Isidor.

I say 5K a word for the fines. It'll stop pretty quick

Edited: 9/24/2004 13:06 Total edits: 1


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por franzese 9/24/2004 13:27
look at Isidor Logo ...someone change !!!!!!! Any assistant made
this ...we need stop this fast !!

Without proves we can do nothing

This action is not acceptable .


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por pinheirobcp (GA) 9/24/2004 14:22
Tomorrow the ip log will show who entered his team. 24h to the ip to
show up.


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por caxaria (MA) 9/24/2004 14:28
lets just ask crew for the ip log now.

i agree with fining users that insult any other user in his
guestbook, but usually that comes after the insulted user makes a
complaint. we cant posibly check every guestbbok for insults, and
doing that for isidor alone is giving him special treatment. but we
cannot turn our backs on it either.


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por roncolho 9/24/2004 14:33
god dammit. who the fu#$ did such a thing...

The fact now is not if we like isidor or not. But no matter what he
needs respect :(


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por roncolho 9/24/2004 14:43
btw. i guess that 99% of the insults in guestbook of isidor come
from trial teams, made especially for this, like the
user "isidor_cheater", so a fine will have no efect...



Re: Isidor's guestbook
por denitto (GA) 9/24/2004 14:59
How about an IP search with the IP of those teams



Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por origo (Crew) 9/24/2004 15:35
Ok guys, here's the IP logs for today (I've excluded isidors "usual"
IP):

213.112.136.45:
2831
20592
107368
107400


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por origo (Crew) 9/24/2004 15:38
hmm. only half my post cam through. continued:
221272
291422
297393

217.174.67.70:
20592
29421
38316
39106
44490
51197
68659
81007
100784
110679
119809
163720
188240
229267
316532
500658
648403
704552
750607
760818
812973
819818
870897
876353
946297



Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por sir_death (GA) 9/24/2004 15:45
Well it might even be isidor who has put that logo there, i know i
would have done that, just to piss them off :-) but thats me.

We need to monitor this for awhile, so that i don't get out of hand.
Sitting in an internet cafe atm so i can't do much unfortunatley.



Re: Isidor's guestbook
por origo (Crew) 9/24/2004 15:59
death; you might have a point there..


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por disbtom 9/24/2004 15:59
I agree, I think isidor put it there himself. He's taking the whole
thing with a grain of salt which is cool.

Scorpio


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por arianos (Crew) 9/24/2004 16:05
The users that have spammed Isidors guestbook are showing a behavior
that is totally unacceptable. I have totally trust in u guys that u
take the correct action against these users.

/arianos


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por hotello (MA) 9/24/2004 16:36
The logo, probably has been done by himself. With is of course a
nice "sarcastic" joke, which we all should value.

The guestbook spamming was the fact around which this topic has been
opened.

To make it a bit more easier to work with, I have looked-up the most
current posters:

fabio161188 (Brazil)
senakokio (Brazil)
andrewroma (Italy)
rickechk (Brazil)
lucasbal (Brazil)
miauu (Brazil)
neguinhow (Brazil)
jeg (Italy)
leaderman (Italy)
fezusa (Italy)
nelsonsalomao (Brazil)
hipercandombe (Argentina)
isidor_cheater (Brazil - banned by Hotello)
castro2004 (Brazil)
patrickxp (Brazil)
mau_gagliardi (Brazil)
gtolentinojr (Brazil)
insane_clown (Brazil)
danilindo10 (Brazil)
suntzubr (Brazil)
senakokio (Brazil)

/Anton

PS: Please note, that those people who have created a new team to
insult Isidor, should loose there first team as well, as they have 2
teams at this moment. Something that is against the rules as well.
Together with the insults that makes 2 offences which should be
enough for a bann or a heavy financial bann.


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por disbtom 9/24/2004 16:42
I decided to suspend the ones that were really derogatory towards
isidor. A lot of them are in portuguese which i dont speak.

Here are the ones I suspended:
gtolentinojr
jeg
senakokio
fabio161188

Is there anyway that the brazilian and Italian GAs can stop the
rumors?

Scorpio
Edited: 9/24/2004 16:43 Total edits: 1


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/24/2004 16:53
His guestbook shows how this has been handled.. How can he be
accused of cheating? Who spreads such a rumour.

Sick!


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por darkelf054 9/24/2004 17:40
we allready warned Hipercadombe(Argentina) that if he continue with
this behaviour he will have sanctions.


Edited: 9/24/2004 17:56 Total edits: 1


Beantwortet: Isidor's guestbook
por tabin (MA) 9/24/2004 17:50
check this out:

ID Name Name
20592 isidor István Kálmán
820280 isidor12 gfdfgfgd dfgdfgdfg
820281 isidor14 uhui ude
975687 isidor2 dddddd [snip!]
967651 isidor46 isidor hess
822218 isidorito Isidoro Cañones
462138 isidorito1 NA CO
808476 isidoro MAURICIO ISIDORO RABINOVICH
925264 isidoro01 diego lujan
974782 isidoro22 isidoro aikasa
378137 isidoro709 Pablo Chavez
888158 isidorocanonex Isidoro .
784768 isidorocre as s
809731 isidoro_piojoso Ezequiel Girado
974449 isidor_cheater Isidor Aik Cheater FDP
975404 isidor_top_cheater Isidor Cheater




Re: Isidor's guestbook
por franzese 9/24/2004 18:13
i will check the brazilians posts ....and punish then .



Re: Isidor's guestbook
por darkelf054 9/24/2004 18:13
To swedish *A's

we are warning our users to stop disturb in Isidor's GB and the
consecuenses of this behaviour, but, please, try to stop other
swedish teams to answer provocations.

I know that this user start to post in the Isisdor's Gb but now he
is warned
Thx

Example (hipercandombe GB)

arab_agenten 9/24/2004 10:22am
Sweden rocks your ******* country will never beat us

marre24 9/24/2004 10:17am
the loser nr 1=))



Re: Isidor's guestbook
por franzese 9/24/2004 18:30
done ....all manager punish .


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por legalgod 9/24/2004 19:40
Habe you seen the Isidor Page´s Guestbook?

http://www.denvitaharen.net/isidor/?page=guestbook&do=read



Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/24/2004 19:43
to darkelf054 - well we can sure try..


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/24/2004 19:44
look at this team


isidor2


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/24/2004 19:49
You better start to do somthing soon or we will have to ban alot of
users. This behaviour cannot be accepted.


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/25/2004 03:56
http://www.gggglauber.ubbi.com.br/anti_isidor.jpg
http://www.vfeyth.pop.com.br/IsidorRox.jpg
http://isidor.blogeasy.com/


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/25/2004 04:08
§15 Is it ok to annoy other managers without breaking any of the
rules mentioned above?
No! If we notice obvious signs of unsportsmanlike behavior such as
W.O. against some teams and not the others, in league games and/or
cup games, we will take appropriate action. Also other things done
only to provoke someone is forbidden and in worst cases it might
lead to suspension.




The last sentence here in this section might be practiced if nothing
changes...


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/25/2004 04:28
Here is a list of managers that has to be rewiewed for their bad
behaviour in Isidors guestbook. I see that all of them are from
Argentina ocr Brazil so i suggest that a GA/MA from these countries
check them out. The punishment could be anything from a comment to
them to suspension of their entire accounts I guess. We need to deal
with this matter now before the Swedish users starts to come up to
Isidors defense - then we will have a war on our hands :)..


Ive told the Swedish users not to write back in the Argentinian and
Brazilian guestbooks or they might face consequences.


Here is the list:


fabioleal
tuabueladicemama
realsnoomborg
julianchu
pavlodf
insane_clown
gtolentinojr
fabioleal
castro2004
isidor_cheater
mau_gagliardi
patrickxp
neguinhow
hipercandombe
nelsonsalomao
fezusa
leaderman
jeg
neguinhow
miauu
lucasbal
rickechk
andrewroma
vincardoso 2004
ground_info
lurikardo
senakokio
juvemerda
josep16
ground_info
renancalix
fabioleal
tuabueladicemama
realsnoomborg
julianchu
pavlodf
taraleta
leicam
adfest




Re: Isidor's guestbook
por roncolho 9/25/2004 05:34
well, things have calmed down now...

anyone talked to isidor to know that if was himself who puted the
logo on his wfo?


por hotello (MA) 9/24/2004 12:57
Despite all accusations over here (true or false) and all
discussions, I do think all rules should be maintained.

This means Isidor, should get some support from us as well. Mostly
to get out all those childeren that are stalking his guestbook.

Please take a look around their, pick out the users from your
country and educate them about the following rule:

§8 Netiqette.
A matter of course is that we all behave in a good way and do not
threaten or write things, that can be understood as racist or
condescending, to other players. This is a rather buoyant judgment
so you can say that the basic rule is that you should behave as you
want other people to behave towards you, but to be on the safe side
you can behave even better. It won't hurt anyone. This is for the
comfort of everyone.

I hope we can all stop these childish actions!

/Anton
Vistas: 156 Mensajes: 29
Página 1

Re: Isidor's guestbook
por denitto (GA) 9/24/2004 13:05
I agree, let's do some thing about this, we should put out a news
item about the rule and start giving fines/suspension to users.

This is not acceptable and should ot be tolerated, and this
meaningless of what you can think of Isidor.

I say 5K a word for the fines. It'll stop pretty quick

Edited: 9/24/2004 13:06 Total edits: 1


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por franzese 9/24/2004 13:27
look at Isidor Logo ...someone change !!!!!!! Any assistant made
this ...we need stop this fast !!

Without proves we can do nothing

This action is not acceptable .


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por pinheirobcp (GA) 9/24/2004 14:22
Tomorrow the ip log will show who entered his team. 24h to the ip to
show up.


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por caxaria (MA) 9/24/2004 14:28
lets just ask crew for the ip log now.

i agree with fining users that insult any other user in his
guestbook, but usually that comes after the insulted user makes a
complaint. we cant posibly check every guestbbok for insults, and
doing that for isidor alone is giving him special treatment. but we
cannot turn our backs on it either.


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por roncolho 9/24/2004 14:33
god dammit. who the fu#$ did such a thing...

The fact now is not if we like isidor or not. But no matter what he
needs respect :(


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por roncolho 9/24/2004 14:43
btw. i guess that 99% of the insults in guestbook of isidor come
from trial teams, made especially for this, like the
user "isidor_cheater", so a fine will have no efect...



Re: Isidor's guestbook
por denitto (GA) 9/24/2004 14:59
How about an IP search with the IP of those teams



Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por origo (Crew) 9/24/2004 15:35
Ok guys, here's the IP logs for today (I've excluded isidors "usual"
IP):

213.112.136.45:
2831
20592
107368
107400


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por origo (Crew) 9/24/2004 15:38
hmm. only half my post cam through. continued:
221272
291422
297393

217.174.67.70:
20592
29421
38316
39106
44490
51197
68659
81007
100784
110679
119809
163720
188240
229267
316532
500658
648403
704552
750607
760818
812973
819818
870897
876353
946297



Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por sir_death (GA) 9/24/2004 15:45
Well it might even be isidor who has put that logo there, i know i
would have done that, just to piss them off :-) but thats me.

We need to monitor this for awhile, so that i don't get out of hand.
Sitting in an internet cafe atm so i can't do much unfortunatley.



Re: Isidor's guestbook
por origo (Crew) 9/24/2004 15:59
death; you might have a point there..


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por disbtom 9/24/2004 15:59
I agree, I think isidor put it there himself. He's taking the whole
thing with a grain of salt which is cool.

Scorpio


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por arianos (Crew) 9/24/2004 16:05
The users that have spammed Isidors guestbook are showing a behavior
that is totally unacceptable. I have totally trust in u guys that u
take the correct action against these users.

/arianos


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por hotello (MA) 9/24/2004 16:36
The logo, probably has been done by himself. With is of course a
nice "sarcastic" joke, which we all should value.

The guestbook spamming was the fact around which this topic has been
opened.

To make it a bit more easier to work with, I have looked-up the most
current posters:

fabio161188 (Brazil)
senakokio (Brazil)
andrewroma (Italy)
rickechk (Brazil)
lucasbal (Brazil)
miauu (Brazil)
neguinhow (Brazil)
jeg (Italy)
leaderman (Italy)
fezusa (Italy)
nelsonsalomao (Brazil)
hipercandombe (Argentina)
isidor_cheater (Brazil - banned by Hotello)
castro2004 (Brazil)
patrickxp (Brazil)
mau_gagliardi (Brazil)
gtolentinojr (Brazil)
insane_clown (Brazil)
danilindo10 (Brazil)
suntzubr (Brazil)
senakokio (Brazil)

/Anton

PS: Please note, that those people who have created a new team to
insult Isidor, should loose there first team as well, as they have 2
teams at this moment. Something that is against the rules as well.
Together with the insults that makes 2 offences which should be
enough for a bann or a heavy financial bann.


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por disbtom 9/24/2004 16:42
I decided to suspend the ones that were really derogatory towards
isidor. A lot of them are in portuguese which i dont speak.

Here are the ones I suspended:
gtolentinojr
jeg
senakokio
fabio161188

Is there anyway that the brazilian and Italian GAs can stop the
rumors?

Scorpio
Edited: 9/24/2004 16:43 Total edits: 1


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/24/2004 16:53
His guestbook shows how this has been handled.. How can he be
accused of cheating? Who spreads such a rumour.

Sick!


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por darkelf054 9/24/2004 17:40
we allready warned Hipercadombe(Argentina) that if he continue with
this behaviour he will have sanctions.


Edited: 9/24/2004 17:56 Total edits: 1


Beantwortet: Isidor's guestbook
por tabin (MA) 9/24/2004 17:50
check this out:

ID Name Name
20592 isidor István Kálmán
820280 isidor12 gfdfgfgd dfgdfgdfg
820281 isidor14 uhui ude
975687 isidor2 dddddd [snip!]
967651 isidor46 isidor hess
822218 isidorito Isidoro Cañones
462138 isidorito1 NA CO
808476 isidoro MAURICIO ISIDORO RABINOVICH
925264 isidoro01 diego lujan
974782 isidoro22 isidoro aikasa
378137 isidoro709 Pablo Chavez
888158 isidorocanonex Isidoro .
784768 isidorocre as s
809731 isidoro_piojoso Ezequiel Girado
974449 isidor_cheater Isidor Aik Cheater FDP
975404 isidor_top_cheater Isidor Cheater




Re: Isidor's guestbook
por franzese 9/24/2004 18:13
i will check the brazilians posts ....and punish then .



Re: Isidor's guestbook
por darkelf054 9/24/2004 18:13
To swedish *A's

we are warning our users to stop disturb in Isidor's GB and the
consecuenses of this behaviour, but, please, try to stop other
swedish teams to answer provocations.

I know that this user start to post in the Isisdor's Gb but now he
is warned
Thx

Example (hipercandombe GB)

arab_agenten 9/24/2004 10:22am
Sweden rocks your ******* country will never beat us

marre24 9/24/2004 10:17am
the loser nr 1=))



Re: Isidor's guestbook
por franzese 9/24/2004 18:30
done ....all manager punish .


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por legalgod 9/24/2004 19:40
Habe you seen the Isidor Page´s Guestbook?

http://www.denvitaharen.net/isidor/?page=guestbook&do=read



Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/24/2004 19:43
to darkelf054 - well we can sure try..


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/24/2004 19:44
look at this team


isidor2


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/24/2004 19:49
You better start to do somthing soon or we will have to ban alot of
users. This behaviour cannot be accepted.


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/25/2004 03:56
http://www.gggglauber.ubbi.com.br/anti_isidor.jpg
http://www.vfeyth.pop.com.br/IsidorRox.jpg
http://isidor.blogeasy.com/


Re: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/25/2004 04:08
§15 Is it ok to annoy other managers without breaking any of the
rules mentioned above?
No! If we notice obvious signs of unsportsmanlike behavior such as
W.O. against some teams and not the others, in league games and/or
cup games, we will take appropriate action. Also other things done
only to provoke someone is forbidden and in worst cases it might
lead to suspension.




The last sentence here in this section might be practiced if nothing
changes...


Sv: Isidor's guestbook
por kevin_keagan 9/25/2004 04:28
Here is a list of managers that has to be rewiewed for their bad
behaviour in Isidors guestbook. I see that all of them are from
Argentina ocr Brazil so i suggest that a GA/MA from these countries
check them out. The punishment could be anything from a comment to
them to suspension of their entire accounts I guess. We need to deal
with this matter now before the Swedish users starts to come up to
Isidors defense - then we will have a war on our hands :)..


Ive told the Swedish users not to write back in the Argentinian and
Brazilian guestbooks or they might face consequences.


Here is the list:


fabioleal
tuabueladicemama
realsnoomborg
julianchu
pavlodf
insane_clown
gtolentinojr
fabioleal
castro2004
isidor_cheater
mau_gagliardi
patrickxp
neguinhow
hipercandombe
nelsonsalomao
fezusa
leaderman
jeg
neguinhow
miauu
lucasbal
rickechk
andrewroma
vincardoso 2004
ground_info
lurikardo
senakokio
juvemerda
josep16
ground_info
renancalix
fabioleal
tuabueladicemama
realsnoomborg
julianchu
pavlodf
taraleta
leicam
adfest




Re: Isidor's guestbook
por roncolho 9/25/2004 05:34
well, things have calmed down now...

anyone talked to isidor to know that if was himself who puted the
logo on his wfo?


por zebentao 9/24/2004 13:25
1st detection of cheating

Each cancelled transfers = 100K€

Each illegal transfer = 100K€ + (all the price for what the player
was sold)

Suspension of every team that is detected to belong to just 1 user.

Warning via managerzone e-mail

2nd detection of cheating

Suspension of all teams (even the seller)

No e-mail (he was already warned)

____________________________________________

I'm going to post this in our forum (in the beggining of October),
with a warning saying that:

users that auto-denotiate themselfs until (date not defined) will be
fined not using the
"(all the price for what the player was sold)"
but
(all the price for what the player was sold)-(market value for that
player)"


Feedback!
Vistas: 134 Mensajes: 13
Página 1

Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por gubsoul (MA) 9/25/2004 06:13
Zebentao.. i dont like that, what if someone gets a cancelled
transfer because someone is making them look as a cheat.
Also if you dont have anything else then the transfer as evidence
would you do it?

And anyways i fell its better to do this

Ban all teams and wait for the user to write support.
If he says yes ive cheated we can give him a fresh team. this means
set a trial team he makes to normal and put in the reason second
chance team.



Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por mundek (GA) 9/25/2004 07:01
i agee with gubsoul exept the last thing, isnt beter to unban his
team and write "2nd chance" - of course if he convince that he was
cheating.

ive never fined team for highpriced transfer which i cought, i ban
teams and wait for email. of course if i find cheat transfer which
is done i fine team or if he earned more then 500k EUR i ban team,
and probably he want recive his team back.


Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por zebentao 9/25/2004 10:46
When i say each cancelled transfer im meaning that it have been
proved that it was a cheat caused by the seller. Of course i won't
fine if ithe cheat isnt proved...

If there isn't an evidence of cheating, there isnt a cheat :P

Im against the ban first, fine after, just because managers that
know to who should write about the cheating would have an advantage
to who doens't know what is support, that there are A's. I believe
in equal treatment for each user and each team, and thats's why i
want to create a formula to determine an equal fine to each user.





Odp: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por mundek (GA) 9/25/2004 11:45
ok. but when you make team, you must select that you have read
rules, in rules you have adress of support, so if some1 make team he
read the rules and he is informed where he should send email.

of course not everybody read rules but ... who cares? you should
read rules before playing in any game.

2nd before you make transfer you must pay for activation, who will
pay for activating before reading FAQ/manual/rules? after this the
newbe will ask his friend about details and then he may ask on forum
etc. im sure everybody who pays for activation knows well what for
he pays.

maybe in portugal you dont have so big problem with cheaters, we
tried to be cool, we were sending warning, we were takeing off money
but it didnt help. thats why we changed our statement and become
sharp.


Edited: 9/25/2004 11:47 Total edits: 1


Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por gubsoul (MA) 9/25/2004 16:15
so Zebentao i should write like 20-30 mails a day because people are
stupid enough to cheat.
Let them do the work write me if they really mean that they should
get a second chance.



Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por zebentao 9/25/2004 16:29
Gubsoul, im not trying to sell the portuguese formula (that isnt
even the current portuguese formula for fines).

Im not saying that any of the other protocols are bad, im not even
dicussing if suspension is better than fines...

I just presented a new formula that we are thinking about using in
Portugal! the idea of this post was to discuss if the formula as a
way to prevent that a cheater doenst win by cheating...

For example if i should put a time tax for old cheats and how much.
If 100K per cheat try is enough or if instead of an absolute number
i should use a number relative the value of cheat...
And so on...

BTW, i dont write 20-30 mails a 10! And even if i writed i have a
prepared informal mail where i just need to change the fine value
and the name of the cheater...


Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por gubsoul (MA) 9/26/2004 09:45
the problem is this

Portugal does one thing
Denmark does another thing
Sweden does a third thing
and so on
we have to find one way of dealing with cheaters.
cause if you do that in Denmark it might be unfair on the cheaters
in other countries cause you dont really punish your cheaters like
we do.


Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por sparseland (GA) 9/26/2004 19:18
Can we have an update on where we are with creating a world wide
policy on cheating fines. It would be most helpful



Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por zebentao 9/27/2004 13:37
Gubsoul, and the problem is that noone tells what should we do!

Noone gives us a formula to fight the cheating!

I agree that we need to find just one way to deal with cheaters, but
it isnt up to me or any other A to decide which way should we use...

We need to re-discuss witth the Crew our ways to fight the cheaters
and its up to the Crew to make us follow just one way...

Meanwhile, i think that its the better choise to just modify a
little the Portuguese way...


Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por mundek (GA) 9/27/2004 14:01
our discussion will lead nowhere, hundreds ideas, hundreds
solutions .
Crew or MA/GA should give us a base, sth like code of law with
punnishments and then we can discuss all points one by one. other
way we wont find agreement.
first crew should rewrite rules. like this point with highprice
transfers or walkovers (to avoid situations when teams gave up cup
matches and nobody want them punnish becouse it is big good swedish
team). without ne rules we dont have basement to discussion.



Áð: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por spyridonas (MA) 9/27/2004 16:06
bramer and a team of 10GA's are working (or will be) on
this "Punishment Manual"




Re: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por zebentao 9/27/2004 20:22
Is that confirmed?

If its true when will come out that "Punishment Manual"



Áð: New cheaters fining formula for Portugal
por spyridonas (MA) 9/28/2004 04:52
yes it is
Bramer's post "How to act against cheaters " is in 2nd page or
deeper :)

and I think it's mentioned in Zippy's thread too

The way I see it
we all have different point of views about cheating and how to
punish control ,stop
and we are not changing our minds easily :p

Saying: for example "I do this ,In Greece we decided to do this" is
not leading anywhere


por phippard (MA) 9/16/2004 17:48
He's at it again....

Birger Lundqvist (10762)
Club Isidor AIK
Value 1 SEK
offer: 57 750 000 SEK Zeus IF

Really it should be stopped for the same reasons as last time just
to prove a point but if ive missed something between the swedish
GA's or any other GA's just shut this thanks :)
Vistas: 755 Mensajes: 125
Página 1 2 3 Próxima

Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/16/2004 17:59
I say let it go until the deadline this time and if this is what
happens, stop it again for the same reasons we did last time.

But everone told us he was going to be sold for a lot more, so let's
wait and see for now


Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/16/2004 18:16
well Zeus IF cheats earlier so i've banned him:)



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/16/2004 18:19
junior, I think this is going to creata a huge mess, we should have
waited and see what happen, we can't act too fast in this case, this
was our mistake in the first transfer, let's try not to repeat them.



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por roncolho 9/16/2004 18:21
hum, is this somekind of joke?

He makes an arranged transfer, overvelued. We cancel the transfer,
and he arrange it AGAIN?

Is he playing us for a fool???

He should be AT LESAT fined.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por roncolho 9/16/2004 18:25
i'm pretty sure that if he was some other user that DON'T isidor he
already be out...


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/16/2004 18:27
Don't over react over this, try to be patient.

Junior, can you explain why you banned the guy because selling all
your players to buy 1 is not cheating. If I was you I would remove
the suspension right away as I think it was a too quick decision and
the Swedes are going to make a mess in the forums.



Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/16/2004 18:29
denitto - check first why i've banned zeus, it was all talked with
swedish GA's and danish MA :) . and don't worry i'm now year as GA
and i now smells when someone cheat:D



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por roncolho 9/16/2004 18:30
denitto, what already happen now if instead isidor we were talking
about a canadian user??

do you really think that he'd have this VIP treatment?



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/16/2004 18:31
I've been a GA for a while as well and even if I can smell it as
well I'd rather have evidence.

But I didn't know it was agreed with the Swedish Ga and danish MA,
so I was out of place in my comments as I thought you only took this
decision by yourself.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/16/2004 18:37
Roncolho

No Canadian user has that amount of cash so it couldn't happen ;)

But seriously, I would expect a similar treatment has of now.
And I don't think we can really take this problem to any other
country outside of Sweden because we don't have these types of
players, we are not talking about a bid of 100K on a player worth
30K, we are talking about a starting striker for Sweden's NT. This
is completely different, and I don't think you can bring users of
any other country in this as a similar problem would never happen

Edited: 9/16/2004 18:38 Total edits: 2


Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/16/2004 18:38
user:zeus87
reason of ban:
illegal transfers beetween teams from same IP, and one with team
which email is same as his login 9010018 Zeus IF LingePoolens BK
Bengt-Åke Lind 3129748 2495744 4400000 4400000 2004-02-16 19:00:54
4545651 Zeus IF Enebyberg IFK Torsten Ahlin 2725258 1467422 3000000
3000000 2003-09-04 22:30:14

all you can see this team's IP's and other issues to see that i was
right in this decision


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/16/2004 18:39
As I said above, I was not questionning your judgement, I was just
missing some info and you gave it to me in your previous post.



Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/16/2004 18:41
i've just explained this to everyone else :)


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por diegorod 9/16/2004 19:26
Zeus was suspended, how did he make this bid???


Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/16/2004 19:32
i've suspended zeus after bid ( i've checked how he earned those
moneys to but him:) )


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/16/2004 19:34
Wasn't he suspended after the first try, last week ?



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por diegorod 9/16/2004 19:41
I can't understand why zeus team come back to normal... his team is
only to make friendly transfers.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por lofy 9/16/2004 19:51
For sir_death, there aren´t rules?
Why he writes in swedish in ADMIN SL site?

From today, I´ll write in portuguese, ok?




Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por nalie (GA) 9/16/2004 20:16
This is my thougts...

Let´em buy him fgs.

We should´nt say what they should do or not. If some have alot of
money they must have the right to spend them i think.

Isidor must have the right to sell his players, and because this
player is a superb player (the best in the entire game)everyone will
buy, the price will never be less then 60 000 000 sek.
So in practice you tell the users that their money is useles, and
you tell Isidor that if he will get rid of Birger he must kick him
out of the game. I dont think that´s in our authority to do that.

Come on, dont be silly and do the same misstake twice...




Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por dolphin (Crew) 9/16/2004 20:30
Guys.. didn't we all agree to that we should NOT suspend users in
other countries which have their own GA's... = do not suspend
Swedish users.. we will take care of them ourself.




Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por danilovic (MA) 9/16/2004 21:15
I agree on this with the swedish GA's fellows... If my country will
be clean once day i will be happy, so i don't interfere with
others...

I already saw from yesterday that Isidor putted his striker back on
the market and the bid then was around 40 mio sek and not from Zeus
IF... And the price will even double...

Really, if we keep stopping the transfer of Birger Lundqvist, Isidor
will never sell his magnificent striker cause they will always give
big money for him and this cannot be the purpose of us A's...



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por pinheirobcp (GA) 9/16/2004 21:43
I agree with danilovic.

Zeus IF is banned now. And I guess we all agree this bid will go up.
Now Birger can be bought by a "serious" team. So, why stop it?

I say lets way to the deadline is over. With all this "marketing"
this tranfer had, some swedish team will bid on him, even he beeing
29.

And I agree with nalie. Any player with this quality will end up
bought by 60million sek or more. Now its forbidden to sell excelent
players for huge bucks?


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/16/2004 22:25
yeah - free market guys - why stop? if there is somebody who pays it
well... so fucking what? proof that its the same user - fine with
me - if not no chance - this player has no level where high-pricing
starts

as for the swedish ga-thing and not to ban swedish cheaters if i see
them because you can handle them yourself :

well - obviously you cant - or why would every second cheater i ban
happen to be a swedish user? sorry dolphin but this is complete
nonsense and arrogance or better ignorance is simply not applicable -
i banned those cheaters as i saw them and i will do so in the
future

why would swedish assistants keep saying this every time anyways?
'leave our cheaters alone - we handle them ourselves'
i suppose we non-swedish assistants can tell a cheater when we see
him - i hope you'll credit us that - so whats this talk all about?



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por tandalier (MA) 9/16/2004 22:26
I must agree with tabin, there is no difference if the cheater is
from Austria, China or Sweden...


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por johan (Crew) 9/16/2004 23:36
Well why stop if it is legit?

I think why dolphin reacts on the suspensions tabin is that the
market in sweden is a little different than elsewhere and most
likely because of that reason many non-swedish GAs seems to suspend
users for the wrong reasons. That has been the discussions. We have
seen many cases of this. That is the answer to your question and
that is what the talk is about. Had that not happened nobody would
care. It creates an aweful lot of extra work for the Swedish GAs...

tandalier - you are absolutely right but that is not what the
discussion is about.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por franzese 9/17/2004 01:09
johan....i cant agree 100% with you .

What is the real value of this player ??? Who will made another
offer ( all this money ) ??? Remember , the player is old and will
retire soon . The swedish transfer is really hard ( this i agree
with you ) but for young players ( not older the 26/27 ) , not for a
player in that age . I dont think is normal expend US$ 10M in the
player who will be retired in 2 seasons ( if i´m not wrong ).

I only can agree with you if the rule come back ( US$ 3 M per season
only for sale )...if all the rest is for tax ...a sale is fine , if
not ...this is the inflation .
Edited: 9/17/2004 01:33 Total edits: 1


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por sir_death (GA) 9/17/2004 03:17
iofy: there ain't no rule that we have to write in english...
I always do when it comes to foreign teams, but since the swedes are
handled by us i don't see the need for english really.

As far as I'm concerned you can write in Portugese as long as it is
you're countries teams.

What dolphin is referring to is those suspensions where the
only "evidence" is IP, well the fact is that IP doesn't prove a
thing, it's quite common that a large numder of people are using the
same IP in sweden and add to that a even larger number of people are
playing MZ at work or school, were almost always, all users will be
connecting with the same IP.

About this transfer, let it pass the deadline before we do anything.

That was my 2 cents, now I'm off to install computers again...



Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por dolphin (Crew) 9/17/2004 05:14
tabin: I can understand that you think it is nonsens what I am
saying, but you have to see it from our point of view as well.
Daily we are removing suspensions on swedish users who's only fault
was that they used the same computer as someone else.. Lot's of kids
play MZ from computers in school (I know.. I do..and I use the same
IP as 3 other guys during the day and they also play MZ - but it
does not make me a cheater just because of that).

Let's not fight over this guys, can't we just agree that if we
suspect a team in another country to be cheating , then we e-mail
all the details to the support of that country (or contact one of
the GA's on the ICQ in case it is urgent)

About this transfer.. I agree with sir_death, let's not do anything
while Birger is out for sale, let the deadline pass.





Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por bergy1 9/17/2004 05:28
Thats the first time a Swedish staff member has said they do
anything about transfer cheating - good to see that.
i tend to agree that after the big issue isidors sale caused last
time and the consensus that we should wait and see if anyone else
bids up the player - something many Swedes said would happen.

If however Zeus is the winning bid - it would be nonsense not to
cancel the bid and suspend Zeus - just because you Swedish GA's
think lots of guys use the same PC - anyone can say that - even a
GA - and get away with transfers to their own teams on another
hotmail account/ mobile phone number account. It's time we said no
transfers from same IP's and set a clear precedent so cheating
cannot occur.
Friends on same IP's should not transfer as cheating could occur and
an easy abuse of the system can occur.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por sir_death (GA) 9/17/2004 06:02
You can't have a rule that says "no transfers from same IP", that
would mean that on a school with over 2000 pupils only one would be
able to play MZ more or less, that just wouldn't work.
The same goes with big companies, they usually have the same IP when
connected to the internet.

This is a problem at least in Sweden, don't know how it is in the
rest of the world though.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mundek (GA) 9/17/2004 07:00
ppl in chools mostly know themselfs if they play in MZ, the same in
companies, and probability of transfer between teams from the same
IP when ppl dont know each other is very, very low. When i was
entering MZ i was said : NO TRANSFERS BETWEEN TEAMS FROM MY IP. so i
wasnt, i tell everybody not to do this, and everybody follows this
rule.
how came is this that high bids in swedish teams are usually from
the sam IP, very big accident ? why is that every country in MZ have
forbidden such transfers but sweden not ?
besides usualy fair prices arent from the same IP, only little too
high.

We had big cheater who had over 30 teams and made transfers, not
highprices, he allways bids fair for player, gives only 5% more and
more and more and he allways won this transfers and have few
tousands more from this transfers then he should, he made many
transfers to teams which had only the same IP and teams which won
fight for players were form the same IP - this is cheating. but as
you guys say we should say sorry to this guys and give them their
teams back coz this is not a prove ;] thank. god he addmitted that
he cheated.

besides you give cheaters free hand for cheating when you allo
transfers from the same IP, this way we wont win this war.



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por diegorod 9/17/2004 07:06
Sweden staff allow transfers from same ip, that's why they are the
best , unfortunately.

It's shame for MZ if this transfer have gone, the game will lost all
credit with me and a lot of users.

only that.
diegorod
Edited: 9/17/2004 07:13 Total edits: 2


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mauri (GA) 9/17/2004 07:37
I must say that the swedish guys are right here. we can´t suspend
them for buying a top player for loads of cash..

the same goes for real life, the players are sold for redicolous
amounts of money these days and the transfers arn´t stopped because
of that.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mundek (GA) 9/17/2004 07:45
ok allow to transfer for big amount of cash, but not allow transfers
from the same IP. 2 diffrent things.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por tandalier (MA) 9/17/2004 08:04
it's really a shame to hear all this things...

@johan I know the theme of this topic, but I don't understand why I
should suspend users, if they make hghprizetransers in my country
from the same Ip when in Sweden nobody does it.
Same rules for all users.
Sweden has the most players and so also the most players on the
transfer market..
I'm sure there are also good players for less money.

And the explanation with the schhools and companies, I don't think
that 2000 guys from one school play mz. But if really 10 play it, if
they make highprizetransfers, 5 times higher than the value or so,
they are 100% not 2 different guys...

Next time, I won't suspend the guy, who will tell me that the 6
teams are from him, the mother, the son, the daughter, the
grandmother and grandfather, because as you said, ip doensn't say
that he has cheated, and highprizetranfers also don't seem to proove
this.. ^^


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por juniorcori 9/17/2004 08:25
sir_death> In Brazil we wouldn't write in portuguese even when it's
our teams, coz we have respect for other assistants all over the
world that eventually can handle with these teams in the future.
Besides, we want to work as a group with the whole MZ comunity, but
as i can see, the Swedish assistants want to work separately...


johan, and all the Crew staff> sorry to inform you (maybe you guys
couldn't see it so far) but Sweden is the country with most cheaters
in this game. Why? Coz it's pretty simple to cheat. Take a look at
the admin site every single night and u'll see lots of Swedish
cheaters, making highprices transfers, with the same IP, and nothing
will happen with them, because the Sweden GAs want to handle with
them alone, but doesn't ban them. "It might be from a school".
Please! That's ridiculous.

Por diegorod (GA) Hoje 06:06
Sweden staff allow transfers from same ip, that's why they are the
best , unfortunately

I totally agree, diego, but remember, that's only ONE of tons of
advantage their teams have.


Only in Sweden a user can have a team, put one player in the
transfer market and keep overbidding himself with the other teams he
can have.

And then they want this game to be far...
I'm not going to ban any brazilian highprice transfer from now on.
In fact, no wonder why Steve left the game. There are somethings
happening here that really depress me. Too bad i'm too addicted to
the game. =/


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por seamats (GA) 9/17/2004 08:36
Sweden staff allow transfers from same ip, that's why they are the
best , unfortunately.

How did u discover that? Whoa Im really impressed. I didn't know
that it was beacuse of transfers from the same ip. Good work.

Honestly my statement above is really stupid but I was really mad
when I read the post because its complete nonsense.



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por bergy1 9/17/2004 08:38
It's funny but I'm tempted to look up these GA's and see what sort
of transfers and IP's are going on here. We need you guys in the
host country to stamp out all cheating and make a stand to make this
game fair.




Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por airy (GA) 9/17/2004 08:41
I am very dissapointed to see that Sweden is a different story in
this game. After all the discussions about the benefits that swedes
had before now we find that rules of the game apply for the rest of
the world and not for swedies, users or gas... Even the GAs of
sweden reject the proposal to write their ban reasons in English so
we will be able to understand. My suggestion is to create a server
only for you guys and let the rest of the world play this game fair



Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por seamats (GA) 9/17/2004 08:42
juniorcori: From the beginning when there was only sweden in mz we
wrote in swedish and I guess thats the reason why we do it now. It
has nothing to do with not respecting anyone. We have had
discussions about this within the swedish GA-community but I don't
remember the outcome of the discussion. For me it wouldnt be any
problem to write the logs in english.

I only ban people from my own country. If I find a cheater from
another country I will tell a GA in that country to take a look at
the user and then suspend him if he has cheated. Thats the way it
should work.

How many here thinks that the future chinese GA's will write in
English? I don't :)


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por ianrush 9/17/2004 08:50
seamats i think, that only people with sufficient english knowledge
should be made assistants. Same thing should happen with chinese
people and its also very important, that logs are written in a
single language and not in the countrys mother tongue, becuase
managerzone is an INTERNATIONAL game and not a swedisch one
anymore ;). Its just a way to make cooperation between the
assistants possible. Some nights ago i cancelled a transfer where a
swedish user was buying a polish player from a team from poland. He
bid 350 times the value of the player... I fined him with one
million SKR. But what was annoying is, that the bid stood there for
several hours and nobody did anything about it...




Edited: 9/17/2004 08:55 Total edits: 1


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por roncolho 9/17/2004 08:52
well seamates, i'm tought they will...since MZ is not a local game
anymore, but a internacional one.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por sir_death (GA) 9/17/2004 09:12
Dammit this is getting stupid again....

tandalier: if it is a highprice i don't give rats ass about IP, i
suspend regardelss if they are on the same IP or not.

I never said that 2000 pupils from a school plays MZ, but if lets
say 10 does, it definatley not sure that they know each other. But
if it is a highprice, they (at least the buyer) will be suspended.

Could we please try to stay focused om MZ instead of thorowing pies
at each other as we all have started to do in this thread.



Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por dolphin (Crew) 9/17/2004 09:27
Av mundek (GA) Idag 11:00
ppl in schools mostly know themselfs if they play in MZ, the same in
companies, and probability of transfer between teams from the same
IP when ppl dont know each other is very, very low

This is so wrong mundek. At my university we are 50 000 students..
do you seriously think that I know all of the students that play MZ
there...??

I seriously don't understand why this discussions has to go out of
line.. the only thing that we are asking is that every country take
care of their own people - as we all did agree to do a couple of
weeks back.

I don't ban users from other countries, I always send of an e-mail
to the countries support which I think is the correct way of
handling it.


There is no need to throw out accusasions that the swedish GA's
don't do anything and that we don't care about cheaters because you
know that is not true.

Can't we all just try to have a civilized discussion in
here..please..?

/yours very humble dolphin




Edited: 9/17/2004 09:43 Total edits: 3


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/17/2004 09:38
[quote]
tandalier: if it is a highprice i don't give rats ass about IP, i
suspend regardelss if they are on the same IP or not.
[/quote]

my point stands - i know to tell a cheater - and i will ban every
cheater i see - regardless if swede egyptn or austrian

i agree that ip-log alone is no evidence - but ip-log together with
highpricing (10x and more) and similar pw or usernames - well is
this not a multi?

if you swedes encounter suspensions which you think are not
justifiable well why not ask the assistant that suspended the guy?
maybe he found out something you did not see?

and if the suspension is still not justifiable after that have a
word with the assistant who banned the team or the assistants ma -

dolphin:
yeah that may be so - but why dont you just do as i suggested above?
i think seeking conversation and discussion is the far better way
then to simply close borders.

if you xA's up there would be a bit more confident in and interact
with the rest of the assistants you swedes could have so much
workload taken of your backs


Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/17/2004 10:18
dolphim - you wrote that you send meil when you see cheater from
another country. well let's see:

It passing 3rd day from the time i looking for swedish transfer
market - and I'VE BANNED 400 SWEDISH USERS - how do you image me
sending 400 meils that some swedish user is cheating??

Next - those 400 swedish users which was making transfers - all was
from same ip, 100% of them have same name, same password, same
street etc. so i don't believe they are not same person or don't
know each other.

And btw you say same IP is not evidence, so why the hell crew give
us this option?? if it's no evidence??? and guess what time of
loggining beetween two teams are few minutes - how did you explain
me that both of this user don't know each other or even didn't saw
that both of them login into MZ??


I've got an idea - maybe we will change our transfermarkets - GA
from sweden will look at polish transfermarket, and we will check
yours - i've bet that in few weeks there will be 80% of polish teams
in TOP100, most of cups go for poland. becouse if you don't ban
transfers from same ip i'll create teams on my computer on the names
of my dog, or some other names and sell to them my superb chess
players (2ball shooter) for 500k euro and i say that it's real
becouse only evidence is that we log with same IP?? - it's
ridicolous in that case everyone would have so big transfers without
any suspesion.

And at last - in rules there is - NO TRANSFERS BEETWEEN TEAMS WITH
SAME IP - if i good understand this - it's only rule for non-swedes
teams? becouse in sweden it's allowed - sory but this is just SILLY



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por bergy1 9/17/2004 10:41
There is nothing stupid about our questioning your methods here.
Most worldwide staff who see a highprice transfer between the same
IP for 2 teams will stop it. You won't - the richest and most
powerful country of us. Can't you wake up and smell the coffee -
it's an obvious issue. We play cups with you, have our top players
taken by you - we are justified in having an issue here.

I still haven't had a satisfactory answer to the question of how do
we eradicate cheats - anyone can say they don't know a person at
Uni/ School/ Work and play the game with us of having two teams on
the same computer and making money for the better team - unless we
have a clear principle that covers some incidental IP conflicts and
cheating this will go on.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por dolphin (Crew) 9/17/2004 10:56
guys.. come on.. let's not blow this out of proportion here...

I am only saying.. IP alone is no reason to ban a team.. but I do
agree with Tabin that ip-log together with highpricing (10x and
more) and similar pw or usernames - that is very good reason.. :)


/ dolphin... still very humble..


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/17/2004 11:08
you all dont see what i am pointing out right?

i am sure the suspension swedes are talking about are very
unexpierinced gas and in no way any ma
so dont seek the fault in every 'foreign' ga/ma - talk to the guy or
his ma why he did not instruct his ga correctly

but if swedes generalize that will seperate them from the rest of
the world that much that there will be no common basis in the
future - meaning - you swedes have your own mz-world there in no way
related to the rest of mz-world (who are actually far more then you
are)

i for myself will in no way stop banning swedish users if they cheat
and i catch them - i dont think that you ever had doubt about my
suspensions - if this is the case tell me
if this is the case with other ga's or ma's tell them :-)

give a man a fish and he has food for a day teach him how to fish -
well you know that phrase

somehow i get the feeling that you are a bit paranoic about other
countries trying to invade sweden or sth - please let me give you
one advice: cut that crap
i cant even understand why you dont draw your advantage out of it
and dont start to make use of the potential help you are offered -
sorry but this is insane

sure i can imagine that there are some assistants who might not had
the chance to be instrusted correctly because of interior problem in
the assistant structure - but its the ma-job to ensure they do know
what they are doing or (if not knowing) prevent them from doing that.

well - the solution is not to build borders but to ensure that the
ga's responsible for that learns how to suspend and accepts that or
to let him do another job but ga

as for the ga's thinking the ip-log is proof enough hear this:

learn to do your job! or quit!

ip-log alone is never a proof for nothing - if there are no
transfers going on - the password is not the same (or comparable to
the other teams username etc) or sth more evident well its no chance
for you to proof that this team is a cheater/multi

and let me tell you one more thing - i will only ban teams from
other countries if im absolutely sure - whereas i dont care if its
sweden or argentinia or israel


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por bramer (MA) 9/17/2004 11:15
What' going on here? The admin forum is looking more and more like
the regular user forum, lots of whining, criticism and angry words.
The subject of this thread is about Isidor, nevertheless it ends up
in conspiracy theories and blame. Please discuss anything you want
here, but try to be constructive.

First of all, the Isidor transfer must go through this time, as long
as there is a real bidding involved. We can't make up our own rules
now saying that we will not accept any transfer where there's a lot
of money involved... This far the bidding has been fair on that
player, right?

About the IP discussion, sir_death is absolutely right. The IP alone
is never enough to cause a suspension nor a blocked transfer. You
must work with IP's as an indicator, not as solid proof. If the
transfer is legit - leave it be, if it's not - suspend the buyer, no
matter what the IP's say. If the IP's match and the transfer is
illegal, then we should consider to suspend the seller as well,
especially if there are more things linking the teams, i.e. e-mails,
usernames, passwords, etc. Juniors example of creating several teams
on his own computer is not relevant, because if the transfers are
not legit the transfers should be stopped and users suspend no
matter what the IP's are.

And I resent comments about Swedish GA's intentionally allowing
cheaters to pass. Those comments are plain stupid. First of all I
completely trust all Swedish GA's, I have never so far seen any
indication of any SE GA misusing their powers. It's simply below any
of us to even think like that. If, however, someone else is prone to
form stupid thoughts like that I recommend you to think it through
more carefully. What on earth would be gained by letting cheaters
pass other than making the competition even harder on yourself?

What dolphin says about only checking your own country is not 100%
correct, however, we have asked you several times to leave the SE
highprice system alone since there are a few names regularly showing
up in userlogs where the transfer actually was legit. We have to
take a lot of anger from managers who have had their legit transfer
stopped for no good reason and the users are getting more and more
upset. The only solution to this is to ask GA's from other countries
to leave those transfers to Sweden.

You must all understand that the absolute worst thing we can to
towards MZ is to wrongfully suspend managers. It's against all
ethics and it hurts the company - a lot! We have no legal right to
suspend users unless there's really cheating (or breaking any other
rule) involved. Therefore it's actually better to let two cheaters
unpunished than to suspend one manager for the wrong reasons. Of
course, we all wish to get rid of every cheater there is, but it's
really really important that you're absolutely sure when you're
suspending cheaters. The worst case scenario is that we actually
have to ask GA's to quit if there are too many mistakes conducted by
them and I assure you that's the last thing any of us want.

Then there's also the discussion about what language should be used
and I agree that perhaps we should all start working in English. It
would make it easier for all of us. And it doesn't actually require
any extra effort. Don't you agree?

/Tobias
Edited: 9/17/2004 11:18 Total edits: 1


Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/17/2004 11:31
bramer so what will you say about transfer (swedish teams) which was
on first page of highpriced transfers (5x value) beetween teams from
same IP, and have same surname ("brothers"), transfer was there for
more then 24 hours and noone stopped it. mundek observed this
transfer and write user's id to check him after transfer passed, he
must personally baned them


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/17/2004 11:33
you all dont see what i am pointing out right?

i am sure the suspension swedes are talking about are very
unexpierinced gas and in no way any ma
so dont seek the fault in every 'foreign' ga/ma - talk to the guy or
his ma why he did not instruct his ga correctly

but if swedes generalize that will seperate them from the rest of
the world that much that there will be no common basis in the
future - meaning - you swedes have your own mz-world there in no way
related to the rest of mz-world (who are actually far more then you
are)

i for myself will in no way stop banning swedish users if they cheat
and i catch them - i dont think that you ever had doubt about my
suspensions - if this is the case tell me
if this is the case with other ga's or ma's tell them :-)

give a man a fish and he has food for a day teach him how to fish -
well you know that phrase

somehow i get the feeling that you are a bit paranoic about other
countries trying to invade sweden or sth - please let me give you
one advice: cut that crap
i cant even understand why you dont draw your advantage out of it
and dont start to make use of the potential help you are offered -
sorry but this is insane

sure i can imagine that there are some assistants who might not had
the chance to be instrusted correctly because of interior problem in
the assistant structure - but its the ma-job to ensure they do know
what they are doing or (if not knowing) prevent them from doing that.

well - the solution is not to build borders but to ensure that the
ga's responsible for that learns how to suspend and accepts that or
to let him do another job but ga

as for the ga's thinking the ip-log is proof enough hear this:

learn to do your job! or quit!

ip-log alone is never a proof for nothing - if there are no
transfers going on - the password is not the same (or comparable to
the other teams username etc) or sth more evident well its no chance
for you to proof that this team is a cheater/multi

and let me tell you one more thing - i will only ban teams from
other countries if im absolutely sure - whereas i dont care if its
sweden or argentinia or israel


Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/17/2004 11:55
ok let's talk with and example
transfer
149542 (SE) 70310 (SE) 3086977 1020815 3000000 (2.9) 8000000 (7.8)
2004-09-16 15:40:29 2004-09-17 15:35:49 2004-09-17 15:40:29

so visible on first page of highprices on SL

teams have different names, passwords, emails, etc. only same is IP -
look at timing, sometimes just few minutes of different in logins

player - superb 6shooter striker with 2 balls in speed, probably 24-
26 years old - bid 8mln sek (almost 1mln EUR)

OFF COURSE IT'S NOT CHEATING YOU SAY????


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por bergy1 9/17/2004 12:32
Actually Bramer your post is just like one of Nemesis old posts in
the normal threads.

Nobody has accused any GA of cheating - just applying a different
standard of scrutiny.
There must be some cultural differences here because the language
and debate here I find refreshing and open - not destructive and
whining at all.

We can't pull anything out of this discussion if you pull rank like
this - topic closed - you Swedes carry on as you were with your
approach, keep the rule that IP is irrelevant on its own as an issue
and keep the high income locked up there - fine.

Lets all be 'nice' and forget about it. All I can say is I am not
prepared to investigate any IP similarities without other factors
with English managers and apply the same rule - we won't benefit as
much as you but that's a fair system.
If an English IP has 200 teams with different names, users and
passwords fine.

Position clarified.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mundek (GA) 9/17/2004 12:35
By dolphin (GA) Today 14:56
guys.. come on.. let's not blow this out of proportion here...

I am only saying.. IP alone is no reason to ban a team.. but I do
agree with Tabin that ip-log together with highpricing (10x and
more) and similar pw or usernames - that is very good reason.. :)

so you will never catch real cheater, you catch only small fish,
stupid guys who make 10 teams with the same name_pass+ logins like
login1, login2, but the sharks will win prizes, leagues and will
destroy the fun which this games brings.. look at transfers with 2x
value - you even dont imagin how many ppl cheats.

i think discussion here is useles, we say this way, you say that way
and eveybody will do the same.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por dolphin (Crew) 9/17/2004 12:40
mundek.. that was an example...

but I do agree with you.. this discussion is going nowhere.. and as
for myself.. I will end it here.. :)

/dolphin.. still humble.. :)


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por juniorcori 9/17/2004 13:29
Por tabin (MA) Hoje 08:38
my point stands - i know to tell a cheater - and i will ban every
cheater i see - regardless if swede egyptn or austrian

Tabin> i'll do the same!

Por seamats (GA) Hoje 07:42
juniorcori: From the beginning when there was only sweden in mz we
wrote in swedish and I guess thats the reason why we do it now. It
has nothing to do with not respecting anyone. We have had
discussions about this within the swedish GA-community but I don't
remember the outcome of the discussion. For me it wouldnt be any
problem to write the logs in english.

seamats> We also had discussions about it within the brazilian GA-
comunity, but different from you guys (apparently) we have chosen to
write everything in english, so every GA from all over the world can
deal with the users if they need to.


Ok, all the GAs know that ip-log itself is not a proof of anything,
but it's a relevant evidence, that's why we can check it. If there
is a transfer between teams of same ip-log, we must judge it
properly, check all the evidences. When i see a suspect transfer
between teams from Sweden, most of the times they are under the same
Ip, and most times they are cheaters. Usually if i don't stop the
transfer, it won't be stopped or some non-swedish GA will stop it.


Now, let's be fair with every country. If in Sweden they are not
banning transfer in the same IP, not even when they are very
suspicious (who acess the admin site everyday knows what i'm talking
about), so let's not do it in any other country!

Or you think that, in a country with nearly 200 million ppl, and
with HUGE Universities and Schools as Brazil, we r going to have
less chances to have innocent teams logging in the same IP than in
Sweden?

Por seamats (GA) Hoje 07:36
Sweden staff allow transfers from same ip, that's why they are the
best , unfortunately.

How did u discover that? Whoa Im really impressed. I didn't know
that it was beacuse of transfers from the same ip. Good work.

seamats> I prefer not to talk about the provocation, but i'll
suggest you take a closer look at the admin website. When u see the
number of transfers with the same IP in sweden and in all the rest
of the world u might understand what diegorod meant with that
sentence.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por juniorcori 9/17/2004 13:54
bramer> I'll enphasize here i'm not acusing any SE GA of not banning
a cheater when they should. But u must agree that, for some reason
(?), Sweden has more cheaters than any other country. Look the
HighPrice transfers... =/

I also think we should discuss it here, of course we should. All we
have to do is be respectful with our mates. But why on Earth
shouldn't we discuss something that's annoying most of non-Swedish
GAs?


Juniors example of creating several teams on his own computer is not
relevant, because if the transfers are not legit the transfers
should be stopped and users suspend no matter what the IP's are.

So tell me, bramer... If a Swedish user create 5 teams, and put a
player for sale. Then, someone gives the first bid, and the cheater
overbid it with one of his 5 teams... Then, the guy from the first
bid bids again, he wants the player. Sudenly, another team (that the
cheater created) overbids again... And the cheater keeps increasing
the value of that sale, until the value is quite big. One of the 5
teams will end up buying the player. What will happen with this
cheater?
In sweden, a GA will find the bid a bit high, will see the same IP,
but won't be able to do anything. The cheater is not gonna be
caught.

In Brazil, we'll see that the last bid is suspect, we will see the
same IP and we will stop it and ask the users to explain himself.
Most of the times they can't, and we catch a cheater.

I think it is relevant.

we have asked you several times to leave the SE highprice system
alone since there are a few names regularly showing up in userlogs
where the transfer actually was legit.

Well, talk to the GA who banned an innocent user and show him why
the transfer was legit.
If with lots of GAs form other countries looking the SE HighPrce
transfers Sweden is still champion in cheating, imagine if u guys
look at it by urselves. I'm not telling you that SE GAs aren't good
enough, but as i told u before, for some reason Sweden has more
cheaters than any other country. I think everyone who sees the admin
website daily will agree with me.


And i agree with many things u say. We use to say a lot in the GA-
Brazilian comunity that "it's better to let 100 guilties free than
arrest 1 innocent" =) Actually it was roncolho who first said it,
and i like to quote that.
Edited: 9/17/2004 14:18 Total edits: 1


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por nemesis01 9/17/2004 17:22
1 week on, and nothing has changed. How Typical.

Still the same mentality from Sweden. Do you guys ever wonder why
Sweden doesnt moan about inflation and an unfair balance?

Probably the same reasons why Brazil dont moan about not winning the
World Cup.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por sir_death (GA) 9/17/2004 19:25
nemesis: yeah and the same mentality from everybodyelse aswell..

If you don't think that Swedish managers moan about inflation you
are dead wrong.

Well I am gonna drop this cause it is leading nowhere



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por zefrenchy16 9/17/2004 20:33
From what I can remember, as their was a thread made about this some
time ago stating to stay out of the Swedish Transfer Market as the
prices are pretty "Crazy" compared to other countries.

The only think I'm going to say on this subject is that I trust the
Swedish Staff 100% and whatever they do will be supported
accordingly, as I'm staying out of this "debate" =)

Eddie.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por oxi 9/17/2004 21:06
After reading this thread, i'm really happy that i resigned as a GA
(if only they could remove me from the list :))

If you still care about my opinion, the first question everybody
should ask is, what is cheating.

In sweden,we have since we started this game only suspended users
that are 100% cheating. Selling a player at market prices to another
with same IP, isn't for us cheating.
Selling a player at a price high above the marketprice to another
with same IP, that is cheating. If cou can't find a connection
between 2 teams, but they have sold players high above the market
price, between them, then we only suspend the buyer. Similar
passwords, usernames, etc. helps out to find cheaters. If 2 users
live on the same address and have a transfer at market price between
them, then it's not cheating. Im sure everyone in Sweden works with
the same rules as I have written above.

Maybe some cheaters doesn't get suspended, but some users that ain't
cheating doesn't get suspended aswell.
We all (in Sweden) thinks this is the right way to go.

Im sure that everyone here don't agree.
I have never in my life cared about if the transferprice is 4*times
the value, 6*times the value, or even 15*times the value. That
doesn't matter in my eyes, as long it's a regular transferprice.
Birger Lundqvist is 1 fine example that the 5*times the value =
cheat, isn't correct.

Take care


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por panthertje (GA) 9/18/2004 00:16
just cancel transfer!

and if isdors does it again than there is option 2 of me and that is
that friends him help so suspend both! juts get lose of these
cheaters!

I hate cheaters! so just bann and get banning them!

Panthertje


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por juniorcori 9/18/2004 01:24
fresh_mind> i'd answer ur comment here, but i'll talk to u
privately. Just want to clarify that the Brazilian Forum is no
longer a mess!

=) thanx for deleting that message!
Edited: 9/18/2004 01:51 Total edits: 1


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por methos 9/18/2004 05:37
@panthertje

You can't just ban isidor. That's utterly insane.

In my opinion, there's nothing we can do if Lundqvist is bought by a
regular and clean member even though the offer is out of proportion.
I agree it's a huge amount for a 29-year old but if a legit user is
willing to pay that amount, then we should let it go through.

/Methos


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por bergy1 9/18/2004 07:49
thanks oxi for that clear message
your explanation makes sense - until this thread I wasn't aware of
how you operated - i for one would rather you not resign



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por hotello (MA) 9/18/2004 09:11
The problem in this transfer is not the amount to be paid, as I
think everybody will pay this for a player with these skills.

The problem we are reaching now, is how to determine the
marketvalue. As the age is going to a major part in determining a
players marketvalue.

The fact is now, is it common sense to invest all your money in a
player that might retire within 15 weeks or not?

We can't judge this transfer before we can answer that question.

/Anton


Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/18/2004 09:22
oxi - in that case in sweden is so easy to cheat - only thing what
cheater needs is patient, and he musn't be greedy.
you ask how? - well here the answer

user create his team A (those he want have best) and 2-3 other teams
(B's). he put on sell his players and bid 20% over marketprice (it's
not much in one transfer) - you don't ban him althrought that
transfer is beetween one IP (offcourse the second team have
completly different name, password, email) - you pass this transfer,
then he do another and another, all just with 20-30% over his real
value, after making 7-8 transfers he's got ~1mln euro more on his
account and he's clen on your eyes becouse those 2-3 teams B sold
all of their good players just to buy useless players from team A.

so as you see if you allow to transfer beetween one IP it will be so
easy to cheat and gain more money.

2nd thing about banning teams well i think better ban this and see
how many people write on support. if those teams where managed by
tho different persons there will be 2 mails on support (from both of
teams), but if there will be only one manager he will be only asking
about his A team, so you will have the cheater.

Me and mundek banned many many teams which make transfers with same
IP, and guess what we both hit only ONE transfer which wasn't
cheat!! - 1 transfer on few thousands it's really really low.



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por pinheirobcp (GA) 9/18/2004 09:25
I don't think WE should decide this, in this "Lundgvist case".

If a clen menber want to bid huge amounts of money for the best
player in the game, its his money, we have nothing to do about it.
The market is free, isnt? Shall we stop every tranfer we judge
stupid?

And I wouldn't be susprised, after all the "marketing" this tranfer
had, thw bid will pass the canceled Zeus IF's bid.



Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por sir_death (GA) 9/18/2004 13:09
junior: as long as the price for the player isn't over the "market
price" it ain't cheating, even if they live on the very same street.

But if the password etc is the same, then they fall for the rule of
not having 2 teams and they will be banned.

I is not a good thing to ban a team and wait for the mails to come
dropping in, people pay for their teams and we have no right
whatsoever to close and account unless we are 100% clear that it is
braking some rules and have some profe for it.

We all make mistakes, so there will always be some that gets
suspended that shouldn't have been suspended, but we must kepp those
at a minimum.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por roncolho 9/18/2004 20:01
The most curious thing about this is that the teams who were
disputating isidor's player had sold all their players and remainig
with youths only...

Isidor told us that he had SURE that the player will bi sold for
more than the value of the 1st tranfer...how could he be so sure???
Sell all your pro's to buy a player (exceptional, i don't deny) who
will soon retire???

Just a couple of thoughts...

I'm growing tired to fight for the things that i guess that are the
fair...a MZ which all the teams, for all the countries had chance to
be the best of the world (not in ranking, cause we all know that if
we make a league with top 8 SWE x top 8 WORLD, sweeds will kick ass)



Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por oxi 9/18/2004 23:58
you welcome Bergy1.
But so many wanted my resignment, so I actually didnt't want to
stay. Since I have a top team in Sweden I really don't feel welcome
in the Admin forum.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mundek (GA) 9/19/2004 04:58
ok, so my final thought:
we had heare a "war" against cheaters and every nation wanted to
clean their part of MZ from this guys, but there is small, happy
nation wich openned the gate for them. YOU LOST THIS WAR.

Since today i will ban ppl who have the same accounts (diffrent
logins) to make sure that i dont ban honest ppl.

to crew: you dont have to upgrade sl-page it doesnt have sense, oh
maybe if you install video link to every guy who paly MZ, what i
would compere is it the same person.

lets face it 95-99% transfers between teams from same IP are cheats.


Edited: 9/19/2004 05:23 Total edits: 2


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por bergy1 9/19/2004 06:09
oxi - you are welcome and maybe Bramer is right in that we should be
showing a bit more control here if people start to feel they can't
post in here that is a shame

The transfer issue is kind of highlighting a wider issuec really of
how we even out the game and that will take a while.
I hope Bramers panel looking at an overall set of guidelines for us
as staff to follow or use will help this whole process. I know most
of my frustration has been based on not really knowing what cheating
really is and not having those guidelines to follow. The fact we
have all been applying different criteria to transfer cheating has
highlighted this.

You should not resign oxi




Ang: Isdors Transfer Again
por gubsoul (MA) 9/19/2004 08:37
Bergy i dont agree... Oxi should resign he did a thing that we as
Assistants cant have.. he gave an entire mail conversation to
Isidor, and gave him the info about who said what.

This is just unacceptable.

we have to keep the trust and frankly i dont trust Oxi anymore, and
it has nothing todo with him having a top team, its the mail issue
alone that gives me doubts about him.
Im very sorry it ever happend, but will it ever happen again i do
think so, if someone doesnt agree with other people in here and they
can get away with giving out confidential mails, it will happen
again.
so therefor Oxi shouldnt be GA.



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mkillah (MA) 9/19/2004 09:25
1. If what gubi sys is true I really don't know what is oxi still
doing here? Spying for isidor? Why don't you take him his
privileges? More than that I really do not think so he has the right
to tell me or any other GA how to do our job since he obviously
don't know it by himself revealing confidential logs to third party.
Shame on ya (doubt you care tho).

2. Like junior82 said...if that is the way you deal with dodgy
transfers in Sweden - ok continue but for God's sake tell your
members that the one and only reason you guys still has an advantage
in MZ is your policy against cheaters and not outstanding tactical
knowledge of all swedish community. Don't you find it strange that
new swedish teams beat foreign teams with more experience in
official cups? And no it's not because they can find hints and tips
on swedish forums and not because your managers are more experienced
than foreign ones and help them. It's because your policy against
cheaters is not right.

I don't blame anyone from swedish staff because it's not your fault.
Thats your policy and you follow it but think about it. Is this
policy absolutely right? In my opinion it's not.

Excuse me Tobias but I can't agree with you on one thing only. You
say it's better to pass on two cheaters if it's gonna make one
innocent manager suffer. GA's are here to take care of all illegal
actions our members take. We're here to make the game as
entertaining for those playing along with rules as it can be too
agreed but as you probably know 1st cant go with 2nd and 2nd cant go
with 1st. So my question is will innocent member rather be suspended
for a day coz we had doubts or maybe he rather have equal chances
against others? Letting two cheaters away you deny giving regular
members chance to compete with "the rest" on equal conditions.

I could ask my fellow GAs to start using your policy but it would
turn polish transfer market into one HUGE MESS so i'm not going to.
Does it mean we won't have a chance to compete with Sweden on equal
conditions? I guess so. Is it fair and along with game rules? No I
guess not. But what can we do about it while your policy is just out
of date? Cheaters are getting clever each day. You ban one he will
get back with new ideas on how to cheat and from what I see cheaters
in Sweden know exactly what to do to get rich very quickly.

You always say the biggest problem on MZ is inflation. Don't you
find it strange it gets worse every day? Cash flow in Sweden is
seriously disturbed. Cash stays in the game cause swedish managers
can sell every crap player to their dummy teams and they get away
with that. It won't change till your policy stays the same. Soon you
will need to devaluate swedish crown coz its purchase ability will
decrease to such a low level. Think about it.

Thats why I think it's absolute must to write guidelines for every
GA in MZ (no matter if he's from Turkey, Brazil, USA or Sweden)
which they MUST follow. Those guidelines should be disscussed over
here and all must agree to them. It's just unacceptable to continue
our work the way it is now.

MK

/edit typos
Edited: 9/19/2004 09:27 Total edits: 1


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por oxi 9/19/2004 12:18
1. Yes my only reason for spending hundreds of hours helping users
on this site was just so that I could spy for Isidor. If you even
have read one of my post:s in this thread I haven't even once telled
you how do to your job.

Claiming that the only reason we have an advantage is that everyone
is cheaters is just plain stupid.

And Gubsoul:
after reading that mail, thad made me resign, I really don't trust
you either.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por gentled 9/19/2004 12:35
Just to get back on topic here, Who's gonna stop the current
transfer of Birger Lundqvist ? The buying team again sold all their
players and Birger Lundqvist is worth more than all of the remaining
players combined.

Just 90 minutes remaining.....


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mkillah (MA) 9/19/2004 13:49
Maybe you also should read my post more carefully. I never said that
u spied for isidor all the time i just asked why are you still here
and suggested that you could still spy for isidor. Personally i
don't care how much time u ever spent on catching cheaters and
helping users as much as I don't care about user who was playing
along with rules for 5 months and cheated all of a sudden for
instance. He broke rules just like you did revealing confident
conversation it has nothing to do with your previous actions so
don't try to excuse yourself this way. Rules are rules and we have
this forum for a reason.

And excuse me for this misunderstanding you really didnt say
anything on how to do my job.

And i never said that everyone's cheater. That would really be plain
stupid if I said so. I just said that Sweden is full of cheaters
which cheat having Swedish staff permission to do so because you
don't consider it cheating while GAs in other countries do (or at
least gross part of them).

Truth is we wouldnt have had this conversation if we had general
guidelines how to act on similar issues.

And imho we shouldnt do a thing with Lundqvist transfer. We shouldnt
have done anything with it before in the first place. He has every
right to sell that player and personally I think the guy who is
buying him can do everything to buy him even if we find his actions
stupid. It's his team and his money period.

MK
/edit typos
Edited: 9/19/2004 13:51 Total edits: 2


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por bramer (MA) 9/19/2004 14:13
mkillah:
You have to look at what I said separately from the IP-discussion,
or rather it's applicable in every discussion concerning
suspensions. We must never suspend anyone unless we're absolutely
sure. I'm not pulling rank here, these are direct orders from Johan
and I believe he's absolutely right. I'm actually willing to take it
so far as to say it's illegal to suspend users that have not
cheated, even if it's by a mistake the suspension is taking place.
We will of course, no matter how hard we try, always suspend an
innocent manager from time to time no matter how hard we try, but
it's utterly important to minimize the risks.

And I do agree guidelines are severely needed, the work for a
homogeneous treatment of cheaters will start next week.






Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por bergy1 9/19/2004 15:19
Well ok oxi shouldn't have done that - but certainly in threads in
forums GA's outside Sweden were giving the clear impression that it
was Swedish GA's who stopped Isidors transfer implying they had only
a small part to play in the process - which, as I understood it,
wasn't true - they essentially stated they would cancel the transfer
if the Swedish guys didn't cooperate. Now imagine the pressure
heaped on them byb the Swedish managers and Isidor?

Who is totally pure or right here? No one really. A few apologies
and we can all move forward I feel without anyone resigning.



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mkillah (MA) 9/19/2004 16:10
Well i guess you're right bergy but still it didnt give oxi right to
do such things. No matter what like I said in the first post i cant
be even sure if it's right or not and shouldnt write my reply in
such a tone. My apologies oxi but if it is right i feel it was
unacceptable. Anyways leave it as it is dont wanna get involved
anymore.

@bramer I understand that completely. I never ever said IP match can
be 100% proof that user/users is/are cheating. I just said that it's
very likely and as far as i'm concerned we have never made a single
mistake in Poland in what we did. Of course we had several cases in
whcih users claimed to be innocent but after day or two they
confessed. Under these circumstances i'm willing to say we're doing
great job here following IPs matches and not a single case where we
were wrong sounds like minimazing the risk with 100% efficiency.

I had a situation before when I sold one of my very good players to
my dad. Users in Poland know very well who my dad is and whats his
team. They accuse me of cheating since then even though there were
like 4 more teams bidding this player. In such cases its obvious we
cant talk bout cheating coz it's fair bid war but....when i see
rather decent player with rather high asking bid (for such a player
of course) and noone's bidding on him then let's say one day later i
see bid, check it out and see the same IP (diff names, diff adress,
or same street, city doesnt really matter) it's pretty clear and
obvious to me i'm witnessing cheat. If it's not obvious to you then
I have no idea on how to define cheat.

You must be aware that by choosing only obvious cheats youre giving
green light to all cheaters out there (even semi-clever ones) that
they are free to do whatever they like.

If you want me, Tobias we could open thread here where we would
create such guidelines under CREW suspicious eye. I'd like to read
what Swedish, Brazilian, Argentinian, Polish and all the otherhave
to say on how we should react on different issues. Then we could
gather it all and publish some general GA guidebook. I know it's
gonna be very hard since we prolly wont be able to list all issues
there but we can try if you guys want.

MK
/edit....typos as always
Edited: 9/19/2004 17:40 Total edits: 2


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por bramer (MA) 9/19/2004 16:36
Mkillah:
You may very well be right in what you say, I have not intended to
tell you that the Polish market has been mishandled. However, the
trouble starts when GA's not knowing a merket nevertheless enter
that market and suspend managers based upon IP's. This is the only
real problem there is. There are lots and lots of transfers being
stopped that should not have been stopped, and when we look in the
userlog we usually find "same IP's" - which may be correct
and "illegal transfer" - which quite often is completely wrong.

No use opening that thread, it'd only make it harder. Don't know if
you have the same saying as we do "too many cooks working on the
same soup". We'll form a group (where I only miss one person now)
with about 10-12 GA's from all over the world, talk things through
and then get back with the final suggestions for comments to rest
rest of the GA's.

/Tobias


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mkillah (MA) 9/19/2004 17:41
Sounds fair! Looking forward to this!


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/19/2004 20:24
Bramer:
"We must never suspend anyone unless we're absolutely
sure", "Therefore it's actually better to let two cheaters
unpunished than to suspend one manager for the wrong reasons"

i'm afraid that doing this policy you do more bad to honest managers
then by mistake of day ban for them. Why? becouse not suspending one
cheater you, punish rest of managers becouse this cheater from that
day have advantage over rest of world user, especially over teams in
his division becouse he will have moneys to buy better players then
playing fair


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por bramer (MA) 9/19/2004 20:47
You're trying to get away far too easy here junior, I sincerely hope
you don't mean to tell me that you make so simple mistakes that all
the manager needs to do to get his team vack is to e-mail you the
next day saying he's innocent? We make mistakes in Sweden too, and
sometimes we realize that we can't prove beyond reasonable doubt
that a manager is cheating, but it's never that simple. The time
period from when a manager gets suspended by mistake til he gets his
team back is usually a bit longer than just one day. E-mails are
going back and forth, things need to be double checked, sometimes we
need to contact other managers for clues, and quite often the
manager does not use his team every day, meaning it'll take several
days only for him to notice what's been going on. Meanwhile his
players under-perform in cups and friendly leagues where he has paid
to participate...

I'm not a stranger to your point here, I think it sucks too that we
always have cheaters active in MZ, but the simple fact still stands:
We must minimize the risk of suspending innocent managers! We owe
that to every single person that has paid to participate. If you're
absolutely sure that a user has cheated you should send him to hell,
but if you're not and only have an indication of cheating you must
satisfy by only putting some notes in his userlog and perhaps
sending him an e-mail asking for an explanation.



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por pinheirobcp (GA) 9/20/2004 01:05
Its a fact swedish GAs uses different guidelines. It shouldnt be
that way, tho. I see many swedish clear cheaters get away with
highpriced tranfer at hockey market. Multiply it for 10, and you get
swedish football market, I imagine.

IP is not enought of a prove, you say. Ok, its so nice to see
tranfer of a crappy player, for 12x his value, beetwen teams with
same ip, same ip-log, and its not stoped! Ah, the joy....

The you say "leave us alone, you dont know our market". Oh well, if
you gotta pay 12x the value of a crappy player, I feel sorry for
you. This wall beetwen the "holy" swedish market and the rest must
go down! Its nothing, but arrogance.

I'm not acussing the swedish GAs of deliberately close eyes to
cheating. I just belive we all should use the same guidelines. Or
just separate sweden in diferrent servers, and let the rest of the
world play in peace.

Beetwen, I dont beliave we must stop isidors tranfer (I hope nobody
did so). Its free market, anyway.

Just to clear thing up, I have nothing against sweden, or swedish
menbers. But its just silly to consider sweden so different of any
other country. This way, this game should have stayed as swedish
only....


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por sir_death (GA) 9/20/2004 01:44
pinheirobcp: you are mising the point here.
If it is a 12x bid it should be stopped, if it is a highprice (and I
hever never seen a 12x that isn't), regardless what IP they are
from. But if the only conection between the buyer and seller is IP,
then let the seller be.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por gubsoul (MA) 9/20/2004 05:50
@oxi

surely thats why you gave the email to Isidor because you cant agree
to disagree, before you gave Isidor that mail i had no problem with
you, not even with you not agreeing, i could actually see your
point, but you couldnt see mine and thats why you gave that mail
away.
maybe you dont trust me i dont really care, i dont understand why
Bramer hasnt removed your rights all together its not that hard i
could do it right now, but your not my GA so ill have to wait for
Bramer to do it.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por oxi 9/20/2004 06:13
actually, I gave Isidor that mail because he wanted to know why
Birger was removed from the transfer. I actually didn't know why he
was removed since I was agaisnt it from the very first beginning, so
I asked the other GA:s to tell him.
Since nobody did, the next time Isidor asked why Birger was removed,
I forwarded that mail, that gave him an answer.
I even asked him not to bring that up in the forum, but he did
anyway so here I am. I made a mistake, and I took the concequences.
I even told crew that they could use me as a "bad example".

Take care.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por bergy1 9/20/2004 07:45
I don't see why you can't just forgive this situation gubsoul - it
wasn't right - oxi is sorry - won't happen again.

Do you think it was ok to say you would stop the transfer yourself
(assuming that to be correct?) - is there any blame to be placed on
you?

I've written to Bramer saying I think we need a code of conduct to
follow rather than an arbitrary dismissal of staff which is down to
an MA's feelings and approach - with minor and major breaches and a
fair warning and appeal system that everyone understands. I don't
think you should even have the capacity to withdraw a foreign GA's
status.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por seamats (GA) 9/20/2004 08:25
"Let he who is without guilt throw the first stone" or something
like that.

gubsoul: oxi made a mistake and he knows it and is sorry just as
bergy1 said. I think you should calm down a bit. I think you are
getting a bit to personal here.

bergy1: I agree with you.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por dolphin (Crew) 9/20/2004 08:30
Shame on those of you who has made Oxi feel that he can't continue
as GA. He is one of the most brilliant GA's we have in this game and
it is a great loss to all of us, both GA's and the users that he has
decided to resign.
Everybode can make misstakes we are only human and this is still
just a game.. remember.. it is not about life and death.
What makes Oxi special is that he stood up and admitted his misstake
he did not try to cover up and I admire him for that - it shows what
a great personality he has.

Edited: 9/20/2004 08:35 Total edits: 1


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/20/2004 09:15
some things are just inacceptable - you can always be sorry
afterwards - that is too easy - i personally dont care how good of a
ga he was - plus since ive never seen him here before the isidor
thing i cant tell either -

i still have the opinion that oxi harmed the game in a way and
intesity never seen before and needs to live with the consequences -
whereas resigning from his ga-job is quite mild to me

as for isidor i still want him to be fined for what he did - he
violated a ga-request in posting that letter

as for the guidelines im all positive - ive had a long chat with
dolphin last week in which we agreed that this is very much needed



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por gubsoul (MA) 9/20/2004 14:49
i really dont know what to write, cause Oxi knows he was wrong, and
he did the right thing by resigning.
if the letters had been removed there would be no more talk about
it.
And ill stick to most of what Tabin says, how would i ever know Oxi
as being a good GA the only thing he has done for me is leak a mail
that was confidential.
he migth even be a great person, and he actually shows great
character with this resigning thing.




Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/21/2004 14:22
After all is set and done, we cancelled the first transfer on the
basis that the buyer sold all his players and was not really active
and that this was against the "ethics" of the game.

Than all the big dogs in Sweden claimed that if we waited for the
deadline, they would have been there.

Now exactly the same thing happenned and none of these potential
buyers with 100M SEK showed up. Once again the buyer sold all of his
players to get the money.

I think we should have stopped it again but just got scared the
second time around. I wasn't here all week-end so I can blame my-
self as well for not saying this earlier, but what was really
different the secod time around. If nothing really, than why was the
outcome different


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por roncolho 9/21/2004 17:51
Well. The precedent is open now...

If the same situation happen in a closer future, we MUST let it go,
cause if we don't the user will say: "Well, but in Isidor's case you
let the bid go on..."

That's what really scrared me :(


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/21/2004 21:25
is consistency one of our philosophies?

i hope so otherwise - regardless how doubtful the decision to stop
the tranfer the first time was (im still against this) we now need
to ensure that we dont make complete fools out of ourselves...



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/21/2004 23:28
I agree with tabin, I think letting it go through the second time
was a mistake since it was the exact same circumstances. But can we
really go and stop it now after the fact


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por roncolho 9/21/2004 23:57
Well, if such a thing happen with a brazilian user i'll make all my
effort to make sure that the transfer will go on through...

Or is just Isidor who can do it?



por phippard (MA) 9/16/2004 17:48
He's at it again....

Birger Lundqvist (10762)
Club Isidor AIK
Value 1 SEK
offer: 57 750 000 SEK Zeus IF

Really it should be stopped for the same reasons as last time just
to prove a point but if ive missed something between the swedish
GA's or any other GA's just shut this thanks :)
Vistas: 756 Mensajes: 125
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Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por sir_death (GA) 9/22/2004 02:56
Well the reason for me to stop the first transfer was that i thought
it was against §15 in the rules, still think it is, but that rule
isn't very clear on this kind of event and there was a 50/50 opinon
about it amogst us both here and in sweden about it and therefor i
did nothing this time and yes every such transfer must go through
now, regardless who he is.
As long as it isn't any cheating that is...

However there is a slick way around this problem at that is to set a
limit that you cannot put a bid higher then lets say the 16 most
valuble players in you're team. If they would sell off all their
good players then they wouldn't have tha possibility to bid those
huge sums as they are today.


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/22/2004 05:59
has anyone of you guys explained it to the users or will do so?

preferably without passing any confidential stuff around....



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por roncolho 9/22/2004 07:38
well, i think that is nothing to explain...the users are clever
enough to understand by their own...


Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por junior82 (GA) 9/22/2004 08:55
John Öberg (16837)
Club: some polish club
offer: 3675000 (5.9)euro by Isidor

i'm wondering where are those swedes who seeking for best players in
game?
why this player is not wverbidded 10x by some swedish 8div manager
which want to create superb team on one player??? whis player is
younger then birger too haev 10 balls in speed, tackling, 9 in
stamina and there is no one who want overbid Isidor? yeah really
only swedish managers selling this player will be highpriced into 10-
20mln SEK


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por roncolho 9/22/2004 09:03
so many questions...makes me wonder...


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/22/2004 12:30
I think this was a mistake overall and we should stop all transfer
over players like Birger if the buyer sold all of his team.

This is a real problem for the game and we should not let it happen
anymore.

Let the managers in the Swedish problem, that this will not be
accepted anymore and we should add a new rule in the game.



Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/22/2004 14:41
check out 16837

well - maybe we should think about locking players generated before
a certain date from transfers - preferably the golden-age players

otherwise teams would sell those players at late 20s or early 30s
and still get millions of money for them which will ensure their
domination for some more (rl)years...

those players are simply not real - they had no restrictions as
every other player has nowadays - meaning new managers will always
be in a disadvantage - if its because of the skill those players
have or the money they generate -

i understand that you cant just take those players out of the the
game - so i suggest this transfer lock (could be easily checked via
the playerid)

with this lock they would still be around but would simply retire
and were out of the game - which imho is the best solution for
everybody

- teams owning these players will still be able to play with them
but will have to face the fact that the golden age is finally over
and slowly replace those with realistic players around nowadays

- no money would be generated with these surreal players

- no insane transfers like the isidor one or the one from
16837

- therefore inflation would be kept down at least a bit

- a more fair and balanced mz would be created in which nobody could
profit from those players (which are no doubt one reason for the
inbalance)

this is my suggestion to solve such issues - plus the anti-inflation-
measures talked about in other threads (cup-roof-att - transferfee-
wage-relation - etc)

cheers

[edit] are there pills against those typoz?
Edited: 9/22/2004 14:44 Total edits: 1


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/24/2004 21:41
strange that my posts always seem to be the last before a thread
dies...


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por gubsoul (MA) 9/25/2004 06:15
you post killer :P
maybe we should just have the earningsroof put in, or earningsroof
on single transfers put so you migt only be able to earn at max 3
million euro or something.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 07:34
I must say that after reading this entire thread that Oxi still has
my full confidence. Was that such a big misstake that he had to go?
You spend years working for free in this game - you make one
misstake and then you are treated like dirt.

Next time it might be your own head on the table.

So much anger and almost hate in this thread. I see a deep conflict
in trust between the Swedish GA/MA and the rest of all the GA/MA:s
(almost)..

The people outside Sweden seems to think that swedish GA:s on
purpose let cheaters be just so that sweden as a nation can be the
strongest nation on MZ.

On the cheating - well I think Bramer told us very clear what we
should go after. He also said that this was a direct regulation from
Johan (Crew). Well then I guess there are no more disputes of when
someone has cheated or not - the definition is set and clear. Good I
think - so now you can not suspend people just because the teams are
on same IP or that someone has made a fair trade between two teams
with same IP - if nothing else is dubious.

The debate of this should end here and also the practice of it - now
noone can chase cheaters with only IP as proof - end of story - just
accept and live with it.





Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por mundek (GA) 9/29/2004 07:54
ehhh :/ and you want chase cheaters ?

just look closer everytime you meet transfer between teams from the
same IP and look closer to the transfer history, you will be
suprised :)


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 08:02
Is this a question of what I want mundek? Or how we are suposed to
work? You cant make up your own rules how you work.



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/29/2004 12:13
Kevin, you've been coming very stongly in a few threads in here and
we all respect your opinion, but you contradict yourself completely.

First you state that we should be a team and we should stop the
conflicts between Sweeden GA's and the other GA's. And that we
should all work under the same rules and as a family.

Than you try to defend Oxy when he completely broke the trust we
have in our team. Oxy was a good guy and a great GA, but you have to
understand that what he did was unacceptable, regardless of these
facts and he was man enough to resign.

By the way I agree with the first part of your statement and believe
we should really stop the bullshit and start working as a team.
There is too much hate on this forum, and for no reason as we are
all fighting for the same goal


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por gubsoul (MA) 9/29/2004 12:28
im with Denitto 100% on everything.

We have to have trust to be able to work together.



Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por ulric_b (GA) 9/29/2004 12:57
denitto: Oxi made one big mistace, but u can't judge him as an GA
because of that mistace.
I don't think you kick your irl friends to hell when they make a
mistace.
If everyone should resign when they made a mistace would we have a
whole bunch of MAs and GAs who would resign a stright ahead.
One of the main persons in this problem is a guy with lot of
mistaces in his past.
We are humans not robots.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/29/2004 13:07
ulric, if you read my post carefully I said that Oxy was a good guy
and a great GA. I never attacked him and even called him a man for
his reaction after the fact.

You have to realize that a mistake is acceptable and we all do some,
but there are different levels of mistake, and this one was over the
top. Same kind of thing with Solansko, and I don't see you defending
him.


Odp: Isdors Transfer Again
por mundek (GA) 9/29/2004 13:49
i dont see any1 defending him :O

i dont see any1 defending steve (nemesis01)? his letters were sended
to guy who shouldnt recive this emails.

oxi was GA, he resigned - thats all folks.
same with isidor transfer passed - ok

kevin, i didnt make my own rules - swedish GA (from
support@managerzone.com) told me when i was starting - no transfers
to your teams from your LAN, the same said steve coz he was first
foreign GA who i meet, i was asking about my friends and brother who
wanted to play, and i was informing about them coz i didnt wanted
problems like you can have in Hattrick, and for this years i was
following that rule till few weeks ago sir_death told us that in
sweden this kind of transfers are OK. besides i repeat, i found only
1 transfer between teams from the same IP which was not highpriced
or overbided.


Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 14:21
Whats the hard thing to understand in this posting done by Bramer
earlier in this thread. This is not somthing that you can choose as
optional in your work - this was a direct order from Johan crew - if
im not misstaken. If you choose not to accept this then you make up
your own rules. That was my point.



"About the IP discussion, sir_death is absolutely right. The IP
alone is never enough to cause a suspension nor a blocked transfer.
You must work with IP's as an indicator, not as solid proof. If the
transfer is legit - leave it be, if it's not - suspend the buyer, no
matter what the IP's say. If the IP's match and the transfer is
illegal, then we should consider to suspend the seller as well,
especially if there are more things linking the teams, i.e. e-mails,
usernames, passwords, etc. Juniors example of creating several teams
on his own computer is not relevant, because if the transfers are
not legit the transfers should be stopped and users suspend no
matter what the IP's are."



Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 14:25
Bramer also wrote this:


"You have to look at what I said separately from the IP-discussion,
or rather it's applicable in every discussion concerning
suspensions. We must never suspend anyone unless we're absolutely
sure. I'm not pulling rank here, these are direct orders from Johan
and I believe he's absolutely right. I'm actually willing to take it
so far as to say it's illegal to suspend users that have not
cheated, even if it's by a mistake the suspension is taking place.
We will of course, no matter how hard we try, always suspend an
innocent manager from time to time no matter how hard we try, but
it's utterly important to minimize the risks. "



Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 14:35
denitto wrote - "First you state that we should be a team and we
should stop the conflicts between Sweeden GA's and the other GA's.
And that we should all work under the same rules and as a family."


Mayby you interpeted my wrong..Did I really mention how we should
work other then according to the rules? Where do you find the
word "team" or "family" in my posts? Even if it might be a good
thing to work as a team or a family I dont think ive suggested it
before now.

Where is the contradiction you are talking about then? Would you
resent your brother just because he makes a misstake?

Didn't think you ment that either, and I will try to interpet you
wellwillingly instead.

The core issue is that we ought to work in similar ways with similar
goals and thereby I think we agree.


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/29/2004 15:39
Kevin,

Maybe I missunderstood your posts but I really had the feeling by
reading them that you wanted us to work together. Maybe the exact
words as "team" and "family" weren't used, but that was the idea
behind it. And if you don't agree with this, well I think you won't
have a great time as a GA. I don't understand your motivation to
state that you never said it when it's actually a good thing.

As for Oxy, I think the case is closed, I gave my opinion on it
earlier and I think it's fair. I'm not biaised in any way here (I'm
not saying you are) as I'm seeing the whole situation from an
outside point of vue as I wasn't implicated in the actions.




Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 16:07
I ment that you put words in my mouth that I havent said or stated..
Mayby I agree or not with you on the team thing but I never stated
it so why did you use it?


Re: Isdors Transfer Again
por denitto (GA) 9/29/2004 16:15
As I said just my interpretation of what you were saying. It wasn't
my intention.


Beantwortet: Isdors Transfer Again
por tabin (MA) 9/29/2004 16:36
[off-topic]

could you two please fight your personal flame war elsewhere?

no offence but this is not a good place for that



Sv: Isdors Transfer Again
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 16:46
No problems.. I think denitto and I agrees on the whole mayby just
not on this detail.


Look word of owner and he chage her team name Justicia AIK (spanish
name). I think that your team has been hacked. the last IP doesnt
appears due to somebody is logged on right now Now, he is not able
to do transfers, please take a look into.

Sorry, my english is very bad
Edited: 9/27/2004 19:34 Total edits: 2
Vistas: 423 Mensajes: 65
Página 1 2 Próxima

Re: Important: Isidor
por cacoide (GA) 9/27/2004 12:37
YES, he has been hacked, confirmed. He is canceled now



Re: Important: Isidor
por gentled 9/27/2004 13:49
He has been hacked and because of that you canceled him ? Where's
the logic in that ?


Re: Important: Isidor
por denitto (GA) 9/27/2004 14:08
Confirmation on the forums as well that his team has been cancelled
and Swedes are getting angry


Sv: Important: Isidor hacked?
por arianos (Crew) 9/27/2004 15:19
Isidor didnt get hacked....he changed the content himself and the
Team name...


Re: Important: Isidor hacked?
por cacoide (GA) 9/27/2004 18:16
Ok, sorry



Re: Important: Isidor hacked?
por denitto (GA) 9/27/2004 19:36
OK,

I have re-openned this and changed the title since we now know that
he wasn't hacked but did it himself.

However, we are banning team who are insulting him in his guestbook,
but a lot of managers see what he's doing as an insult to them and
there country. This sense of humour is not really funny and I think
that a fine (significant enough) should be given for something like
that. I know some teams in some countries would be banned for
insulting other nations like that. So are we once again going to
have two different kind of treatment for the same "foul"



Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por zorceus (GA) 9/27/2004 20:38
Exactly what and towards whom is it supposed to be insulting?

Edited: 9/27/2004 20:39 Total edits: 2


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por denitto (GA) 9/27/2004 21:02
Just ask all of south america, I personnaly didn't feel offended,
but when you have 100 users that did, than I believe you have to
take action.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por roncolho 9/27/2004 21:20
I'm supposed to be insulted, if you guys want to know.

This guy is really insultanting us.

If we dislike the guys who go to his guestbook to offend him we
can't agree with such behaviour...

I hope some assistant do something quickly.

/Otávio


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por darkelf054 9/27/2004 21:23
Spanish and brazilian forums are overruned by messages about Isildor
WFO, that he had changed again.

But rumors about this WFO spread along the community and lot of
users are grouping to cahneg his shirts and WFO.

Calling BRasil a "Banana Republic", or put Argentinian's flag doenst
help us.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por lofy 9/27/2004 22:44
All Brazilians are waiting for a HEAVY FINE to Isidor.

If you do not, I´ll do by myself, and change his WFO!

I DO NOT ACCEPT TO BE RIDICULARIZED BY A PREJUDICED SWEDISH.

This kind of person (is it?) MUST be banned from the game.



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por fresh_mind (MA) 9/27/2004 23:23
Well, that's a hard issue. I saw many things in his WFO, and it's
just a light irony, I don't think he's got to be fined because of
that. He didn't ridicularize us.

But, if he said we are a "banana republic", hurting our patriotism,
he doesn't have do fined. He ought to be banned.
But I can't find where he wrote that, can someone help me?




Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por hotello (MA) 9/28/2004 01:47
Could some Swedish GA/MA, please ask István (isidor) to change his
WFO?

I know I have asked our South-American colleagues to take care of
the situation on their side, but with the resent texts on his WFO I
think he is getting near of the well known border you shouldn;t
cross.

§9 Offending material.
As manager, you have the permission to publish certain text,
pictures and links on your club page and to this material certain
rules apply. You are not allowed to link or write something that can
be regarded as offending to other people. This applies to material
seen as sexual, insulting, racist or other material which normally
is not considered as serious material for the team's and the game's
success. To make it as simple as possible you can say that pictures,
links and text, presented on the owner's profile and the
presentation, should only be about the team, and/or the owner.

§15 Is it ok to annoy other managers without breaking any of the
rules mentioned above?
No! If we notice obvious signs of unsportsmanlike behavior such as
W.O. against some teams and not the others, in league games and/or
cup games, we will take appropriate action. Also other things done
only to provoke someone is forbidden and in worst cases it might
lead to suspension.

I don't think the personal attacks he is currently launching, should
be allowed as this would set a bad example.

/Anton


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por sir_death (GA) 9/28/2004 03:12
Iofy: put youreself in Isidors shoes and you might understand that
he must have been pretty pissed off by receivin all this crap i his
guestbook and therefore changed his WFO, eventhough I can't see
anything about bana rebublic though.

Unfortunatley, my frigging webmail just won't work, probably have
too many unread since I didn't get online last night, so I can't
tell him to change it, hopefully some other swedish GA well be here
shortly and see to it.

We need to get this sorted out asap, it is ruining MZ if it
continues anylonger. It might be an idea to put out some news or
something about it, what will happen too teams that writes in a such
offensive ways in guestbooks etc.


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/28/2004 04:11
We have a Brazilian user with 200 accounts. We have Argentinian
users that creates names like Isidor2 and similar just to provoke
Isidor. We have rumors that Isidor is a cheater, (spread by?), even
though he is not and you are worried about his wfo?

Please be more specific in what exact phrase that Isidor is using
that you think is violating the rules on Managerzone. Do tell what
section or rule he is breaking aswell.

I sure hope that you bann/warn those users that are destroying
Isidors guestbook - if not - I will.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por roncolho 9/28/2004 04:40
ok, go ahead. SO I will ban ISIDOR for called MY country a banana
republic (thing that he smartly retitred).

If you guys don't mind to have your country named as a banana
republic added to the fact he's zombing Maradona (which is known as
an idol, more than idol in Argentina).

We are with all our efforts punishing guys who are disturbing then
in his guestbook, whth is a pretty hard thing to do since 99% of
then are trial teams created just fot this.

But we brazilian and argentinian A's are demanding a fine for him,
(if you guys didn't do it i'll do it by myself, and belive me it's
gonna be worst).

I desaprove with all my strenght bad words in isidor wfo. BUT i hope
you guys desaprove SO the fact he's called my country a banana
republic, i can't swallow and i never will.

I guess be a top team is much more than have excellent players, is
also giving an example of good behaviour too.

/Otávio


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por bergy1 9/28/2004 04:48
Someone has changed Isidors WFO - nice to see he loves Brazil now

I like his Hall of Fame too - very funny


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por roncolho 9/28/2004 04:53
bergy, nobody changed. He did.

Btw, i see no funny at all.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por bergy1 9/28/2004 13:10
It's very funny
He has had a mad amount of abuse but has chosen to have some fun
with it - good on him
It's time you guys stopped thinking you are morally superior to
everyone and lightened up a bit


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por denitto (GA) 9/28/2004 13:28
bergy, I don't think it's that funny and even if he has changed it
now, he wrote it int he first place knowing what a reaction it would
create. I'm not at all offended by it as he did not insult me or my
country, but I saw what he wrot and I can understand why it's
offensive to South Americans and he should rally get a fine



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por denitto (GA) 9/28/2004 13:31
And sir death and kevin, stop defending him, Brazilian and
Argentinian GA's are currently suspending a bunch of teams so his
guestbook comes back to normal, they are doing their job with who
ever is attacking him, so do the same thing since he's being
offensive to other managers.

We can all understand his frustration, but his actions were
unnacceptable and stop trembling to the fact that it's Isidor and do
the right thing in this case.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por bergy1 9/28/2004 13:45
Try looking at it before you charge in D
All he had in there when I commented was a web link to a guy singing
the praises of Brazil and a Hall of Fame quoting some of the big
insults - even the Brazil link is gone now

Good on him for lightening it up and having fun with this game

I have also dealt with guestbook insults but still think this is
just a game and - well - there we have it - just some fun



Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/28/2004 13:52
Well I will not fine him anyway. Mayby some other GA or MA or Crew
will but I wont. I cant really see why I should.. People have said
that Sweden sucks in diffrent forumes and diffrent occasions and I
do not fine them. The things done in his wfo is abusive against ONE
user + spam.

He is the one under attack not your country or anyone else.. He is
just defending himself.. Thats my wiew anyway. Mayby you see it
diffrent - I dont. If i write here that I think that Argentina is a
Banana republic - will you fine me then? Dont think so hah.




Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/28/2004 13:53
bergy1 is right too..


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por roncolho 9/28/2004 14:18
bergy - maybr you should rethink your sense of humor...too dark i
guess...

kevin - i didn't expected you did anything anyway...

denitto - thanks, it's always nice receive friendly words...

Got dammit, why are you sweeds GA's so protective?? Brazilians users
who wento to isidor guestbook are receinving 300.000 R$ fine (about
1M SEK).

Isidor who has plenty of money due his (at least) suspicious sells,
play the 2 biggest nations of MZ for a fool, completely depreciate
his people, calling us a banana republic...and you just think thats
ok???????

Bramer. I'm trusting on you, since you might be the most sensitive
sweedish staff, to do something with this issue.

We punish all guys, but we damand reciprocity.

/Otavio


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/28/2004 14:28
Isidor is under attack for somthing that he has not done and you
seem more eager to punish him then the other users - then somthing
is wrong - sorry but that is the truth.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por mundek (GA) 9/28/2004 15:02
weird explanations for me, i was attacked too and you may see how
many mundek's teams is in MZ but i never think about putting in my
WFO the list of unfriendlies or just put the offending words about
the country which pissed me off.

swedish teams have much easier life then other nations (IP transfers
for example), they can gave up cup match to help his mate from
sweden and nobody move finger to do something to stop it, they earn
much more cash from cups then any other nation, this all doubles
frustration of other nations - including polish ppl. but luckly they
dont spam swedish GB (i caught only 1 guy who I punnished for inputs
in isidor's gb)


Beantwortet: Important: Isidor Situation?
por tabin (MA) 9/28/2004 15:04
are you all nuts?

whats going on ?

remember we oughta be a team

so would please nobody take any meassures without thinking twice?
plus in this case everybody should be aware that this a spotlight
thing - every action should be well thought and planned - maybe not
only by the swedish staff - seems like they really need our help and
we should give it to them - besides that are decisions about a case
that large never to be solved by a single country since it affects
all managerzone!

chill guys!

ps: i will bring up an idea about a taskforce in a nother thread
later today - the taskforce will be build by lets say 5 to 10 ma's
who should rule on such questions together with the ma of the
country the case takes playe in - more details on that in another
thread later


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/28/2004 15:13
:) seems reasonable tabin..


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/28/2004 16:58
Isidor the myth!


By pplppl in Swedish forum today:

"FOR SVENSKA GA
PLESAE, DELETE ISIDOR AIK IS VERY DANGEROUSE FOR MZ"

Someone has spread rumours around Managerzone that Isidor in some
way is a cheater. No evidence has been shown that that is the case.
Therefor he is innocent until proven otherwise. His WFO has been
under attack for a cupple of days with people accusing him of
cheating. His name has been slandered by a lot of people.

He then decides to strike back against his bullies, against the mob
that wants nothing more then to see him hanged. He then changes name
of the team and uses Irony in his WFO in order to give back a
little. Ha also uses quotes on his wfo like for example:

"Hey Isidor, get over it and get a life you sad idiot" - Nemesis01

Somewhere he is supposed to have compared Argentina with a "Banana
republic" aswell – but atleast I haven't seen where he did that.

I did some checking on the people that did write in Isidors
guestbook and Ill give you an example.

Isidor2 (full name
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
dddd
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
ddd
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
ddd
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddaaaaaa) did some expressive writings
in Isidors guestbook and who is this then?

Well this guy has at least 4 – 5 teams and mayby as many as 15 teams
(id 967409, 919313, 956582, 975687, 919178) where as 4 are trail
teams and 1 normal team. A more "open and shut" case there can't be
on MZ – they even have the same passwords. But what happens – does
this team get suspended or fined or something – well not yet anyway.
Mr
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
dddd
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
ddd
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
ddd
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddaaaaaa still has a couple of trail
teams and a normal team and no fines.

Now voices are raised that I and my Swedish colleagues ought to give
Isidor a fine for calling Argentina a "Banana republic". The fine
ought to be higher it seems just because Isidor has a lot of money.
Hmm why is this? Should richer clubs get higher fines? If so - is
this calculated by the amount of cash a team has or all the teams'
belongings?

If you read the "Hall of fame" quotes that Isidor has put up on his
WFO you have a lot of users that has to get fines aswell if you fine
Isidor. You will then have to compare the crime "calling argentina a
bananarepublic" while under personally attack with the quotes from
the mob that wants him hanged for a crime not proven.

I will never fine a guy for saying that Sweden, Norway or Burkina
Faso sucks or are banana republics. I've once even said that I do
not like Serbs without getting a fine myself – but that another
story. But I will fine people who destroys other teams Guest books,
I will fine or bann users that have multiple teams – will you?

If this makes me a bad GA – hey – fine me!

What can we do now then? How do we get on from here? My suggestion
is that we go after the mob and not the victims even if the victim
might not be totally innocent either. It is not reasonable to start
talking about Isidors punishment before the others are punished.
Isidor has a very famous team and everyone follows this developments
real closely – I suggest that if we are going to fine him for
something we must have "a lot on our feet" so to speak. Everyone
will analyze this decision. There has to be same "justice" for all
users – so – the punishment has to fit the crime. If you fine Isidor
think of what you will have to do with Nemisis01 for example….

KK




Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por hotello (MA) 9/28/2004 17:12
As I have said before I have no intentions to punish Isidor.

However, I did mention, all rules should be applied in the same way,
to all users.

Therefore, I do think that one of the Swedish GA's should talk to
Istvan to remove the published texts over which a lot of
Brazilian/Argentinian users have been punished already.

A user should never try to be their own judge.

/Anton


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por lofy 9/28/2004 17:28
All of you must be kidding... and thinking that all of us looks-like
clowns...

I suggest create two MZ´s... one only to sweden, with
that "rules"... and other one to the rest of the world.

I could make this game more fair.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por roncolho 9/28/2004 18:14
Fine isidor is not for users like or dislike. We don't fine anyone
to be popular or unpopular.

We fine users who disrespect the rules, simple as that.

Who disrespect him in his GB was fined and even suspended, what i
think it's fair.

But this don't give him the right to offend one nation (actually 2
of them).

He breke the rules, he should be fined, like any user, simple as
that, i guess i'm making myself pretty clear.

I'm asking you, as sweedish staff to give the first step. If you
don't, i'll fine isidor by myself, exactly the same way you fined
the brazilians who disturbed him (what i think it was corrected).

/Otávio


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por dolphin (Crew) 9/28/2004 18:19
Guys, come on.. let's try and maintain some kind of level in
here..ok..

I can understand that Isidor is upset considering all the crap he
has recieved from other users - however.. I do agree.. if he has
something in his WFO that is offensive to other users it should be
changed.

I will check with my fellow GA's to see if anyone has talked to him
about it - otherwise I will do so.

/dolphin



Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/28/2004 18:23
When I wrote the thread above for one hour ago the team Isidor2 with
atleast 4-5 teams, and who wrote shit in Isidors Guest Book, still
was active anyway..

Again - please quote what Isidor said and where we can read it and
also tell us what rule you think that he broke.. Its hard to fine
someone when we havnt seen what he has said that offened a nation.



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por filipelaza 9/28/2004 19:10
The brazilian and argentinian users are complaining about get
offended by the Word of owner of Isidor AIK, and this is suposed to
get suspension or at least a fine, i would like to know if i can do
that.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por denitto (GA) 9/28/2004 19:30
filipelaza, don't do anything yet, wait untill we get a consensus in
here before on how to resolve this situation.



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por lofy 9/28/2004 19:49
I´m waiting too...


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/28/2004 20:01
I was alittle sceptic to if the GA:s would really do anything about
the postings in Isidors GB so I checked it out a bit.

Guess I do such things since im new here or because i have an
unwanted need for control.

Well I looked at 38 diffrent people that all did write shit about
Isidor in his GB - what happened to them?

Well I think that the results seems to be fair and reasonable. A job
well done that is..

18% or 7 users were suspended
26% or 10 users got a fine (most 100 000 k)
55% or 21 users was not listed at all

12 users had no prior loggings at all.
9 users had more then 4 loggings of diffrent kind


9 users had been suspended before - 7 of the 21 users of the once
not listed had been suspended before.

It seems like those who had prior suspensions did not get any
punishments... But this is not a scientific test I just wanted to
get stats myself.. Im positively surprised anyway..






Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por darkelf054 9/28/2004 21:03
I will try to put in words the heavy duty to bring europeans
some americans feelings.

South Americans have a different point of view, this is not a
political disclamer or something like that. This is a reality in our
countries. Our life is not like euopean way of life or northe
american, and not even more like asian life.

We have bad leaders, bad politics and our societies are in crisis.
Our reactions are harder because we are tired of cheaters, in MZ and
in the real life, don't understimate the link between this screen
and what you see far way in the window.

My brothers from Brasil, Uruguay and other south americans are like
us.

The users spend hours and hours trying to improve their teams, raise
him stadiums, and more, the competence is the base of MZ.

In some point users realize that even they advance in the game, the
swedens still escape from our rankings, a match with a sweden team
is like lay in a grave.

The difference is so big... I swear you that any american team can
have more that 3 millons U$S in their account.

We know that Sweden started more than 10 seasons ago, the advantage
is huge, of course not intentional but still is huge.

Maybe MZ need to split Sweden from the rest of countries. This will
be more fair, at least for a couple of seasons.

This is, maybe, one of the reason for so big answer, for those what
was only a reasonable doubt about a transfer


Sorry for my english..


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por zorceus (GA) 9/28/2004 21:51
I see your point darkfel054, but I can't agree with it.
Lets say for example that we split Sweden from the rest of the
countries, and in 2 years from now for example Japan is added.
At that point Argentinian and Brasilian users have had ManagerZone
for 10 or 11 seasons, should the most prominent country at that time
be forced to leave on the basis of superiority as a cause of time
then?

Ofcourse not, the only way to solve the current problem is to
balance the economy of the game, perhaps by linking salaries to
transfer prices or by taxes or by improved youth education or
something else.

My point is that splitting a country from the others will not cure
the disease, just hide the symptoms.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por lofy 9/28/2004 22:51
@kevin_keagan:

1 user cursed 2 countries
100% not fined or suspended.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por darkelf054 9/29/2004 00:05
zorceus,

ok, but give the others country a time to grow alone.

In some point the great number of user of Sweden will need to change
their players and you can put different rules in 2 market that will
become better controlled (not more controlled), its the same when
China arrives.




Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por filipelaza 9/29/2004 01:11
that users Brazilian had been suspended for Gas of other countries.
I only wait that same the Gas that suspends Brazilians tambem
suspends users of its propio country (had to the book of visitors of
the Isodor)


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por roncolho 9/29/2004 01:29
demitto: if we'll wait for a consensus coming from here, i swear
that i'll be about 80 years (i'm with 23 now).

I see no one wait for consensus when several brazilian/argentinian
users was suspended (what i reinforce it was the right thing to do)
cause they broke the rules.

Isidor broke the rules, SO he need to be punished. I can see no
problem, just because we'rw talking bout isidor. If was the
littlejohn or other user...he already be fined long ago :(



Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 04:07
If we where to treat Isidor as any other user then let the decision
on him beeing punished or not fall on the hands of the Swedish GA
since he is a swedish user. Normally we most go after our own (even
if we also fine/suspend users from other countries.).

Is the punishment for calling one/two countries a bana republic =

a fine?
Or a warning?
Or just a comment like "lay off that crappy attitude"?

Its a hard case this and mayby there has gone some prestige into
this. Isidor just has to get punished somehow for somthing because
he is guilty of somthing even thoough we can not prove anything.

Some kind of frustration like the one that "darkel" is talking about
is shining through this matter and Isidor is to be punished for that
frustration.

For this "banana" matter I for one cant fine him since I havnt seen
what he has said/written and to fine someone on hearsay - that
atleast I can not do. I think that the punishment for this must be
done by those who have seen this statement or atleast recived a
complete quote of it.

The qoutations that he has on his WFO then.. Well this is what
people have written to him why is he not allowed to save this and
show it to others? Its not quotes from his mail i think - its from
his GB. Ok mayby the quotes themselves are som provocative that if
shown others get provoked too. But then for this the one who qoutes
cant be punished as hard as the ones written the originals anyway..

Well these were some thoughts from me again.

Sorry if I may seem agressive or provocative sometimes, in cases
like this, I get alittle upset. Ill try to write more civilized in
the future.

/regards KK


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 06:36
This is what his WFO looks like now:

----------------------------------------------------------------

Let me be clear. I have nothing against anybody from South America.
I belive that most of them are wonderfull people and very passionate
in everything they do.

I think this whole affair is very sad and I belive that lack of
information is to blame. Crew and GA´s has a big responsibility
here. Everybody who knows me knows that I´m not a cheater and that I
hate cheaters.

The first year on MZ i hunted down everyone I saw. I have also
always asked Crew to have clear rules about what´s alowed and not on
the transfer. One of my first big post on the swedish forum 2,5
years ago was about what kind of policy Crew had in a lot of issues
concerning the transfer. It took over 6 months before they responded
and they still haven´t made any good regulations.

I don´t like when teams sell all their players just to buy one
starplayer. I have written about this many times on the Swedish
forum. 2 years ago I sold the best best defender in the game. The
buyer only wanted a big trophy though. Some time after the transfer
when I realised this, I wrote to the GA´s and wanted them to abolish
the transfer but they told me that done was done. The team evetually
went bancrupt and the player died.

In the Birger affair I always thought that a serious team would buy
Birger. The first time I was upset that the transfer was stoped
BEFORE deadline. Not that it was stoped. The second time I had
gotten information that 4-5 good serious teams was intrested in
spending 65-70 million sek. Unfortunally nobody did and I wrote to
the swedish MA that he had to cancel the deal this time to since the
buyer wasn´t more serious than the previous one. They didn´t though.
Why? Because there are no rules against one team selling all its
players and buying one star, as long as the price i okey. The price
was okey. I understand if you all don´t think that, but for clubs
that have been playing this game for 3 years 60 million isn´t that
much money. I make about 30 million on the transfer every season.

It´s sad that you all have been missinformed by former members of
the GA´s and other who are only driven by jealousy.


HALL OF FAME

"Hey Isidor, get over it and get a life you sad idiot" - Nemesis01

"Sympathy? Ha, let the sod burn for all I care." - Nemesis01

"Isidor made a complete tit of himself and doesnt deserve any
respect whatsoever." - Nemesis01

"wether he likes it or not, he has insulted the entire population of
South America, to me, I understand that to be racism." - Nemesis01

"What goes around, comes around. Enjoy." - Nemesis01

"Its quite obvious that this transfer have been arranged by Isidor
and a couple of very stupid idiots" - Nemesis01

"...still a highbid and is considered 'cheating'. If that was
considered excessive, then I will have trouble looking in a
dictionary to try and find a word for what this. At the moment, I
will call it what it is, 'well over the fucking top'." - Nemesis01

"Isidor is abusing his reputation to take advantage of a user who
probably couldnt tell his earhole from his butthole for being such a
fool." - Nemesis01

"...someone would accuse me of cheating. Well, this is the exact
same thing." - Nemesis01

"screwing over everyone else, because they dont have his
reputation" - Nemesis01

"If you dont delete the transfer. Then me and ... will. Simple. We
dont care what Isidor has to say, and neither do we care what Crew
say to protect the 'almighty' Isidor. If none of you lot will oppose
him, then me and ... will." - Nemesis01

"Sweden deleted Isidors transfer, not me or any foriegn staff, no
gun was held to their heads" - Nemesis01

"I have decided to retire from the game." - Nemesis01



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por diegorod 9/29/2004 06:43
Isidor can do all things, including offend all people in the world,
this is the true. he's protected.


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 06:45
This is Nemisis01 WFO

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-

Due to a large amount of abusive messages and Death Threats via
email, I have decided to retire from the game.

I have spent over 12,000 unpaid hours in the past 2 years working on
this game and for the people on it, and its sad that it seems that
it only takes a couple of members who tell lies and seriously
fabricate the truth to help destroy everything I have ever done.

All of my players are listed, and I bet a lot of people are glad to
see me go, all because they believe a couple of idiots on their
forums who they think are telling the truth.

For all of those who have ever stood by me, Thank You ever so much.

For all those who think its neccessary to send me abusive messages
and (some serious threatening) emails over an internet game. Go and
get stuffed.

Maybe when Sweden doesnt have as much as an advantage as they do at
the moment and when the game seriously takes in hand the problem of
the unfair advantage, I may return and continue playing.

But as for now, I cant be bothered.

3 Answers remain for 3 issues that I have been accused of lately:

1) Sweden deleted Isidors transfer, not me or any foriegn staff, no
gun was held to their heads, but frustration was shown. Swedish
staff deleted the transfer by themselves.

2) Cen nico resigned before he was sacked. I had no part in his
resignation and the conversation that him and the Head MA member
had. He also broke rules by publishing emails from a while back on
the forums, which had no relevance in his resignation.

3) Rubiton was sacked because he broke the most important GA rules.
And he is yet again, lying his heart out by feeding some of you
complete and utter rubbish about Bramer 'sorting me out'



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por mundek (GA) 9/29/2004 07:47
longer we talk, less we do. i gave up, just dont want to discuss
about it anymore. life is not fair, in real life too.

some1 throw sth and hit player in wisla cracow match - wisla has
been banned for 1 year in european cups.

simmillar thing happend in as roma match but refree was hit - 1 W.O.
+ 2 matches without supporters

where is justice ?. lets all do sth else. this going nowhere.



por cacoide (GA) 9/27/2004 12:17
Look word of owner and he chage her team name Justicia AIK (spanish
name). I think that your team has been hacked. the last IP doesnt
appears due to somebody is logged on right now Now, he is not able
to do transfers, please take a look into.

Sorry, my english is very bad
Edited: 9/27/2004 19:34 Total edits: 2
Vistas: 424 Mensajes: 65
Anterior Página 1 2

Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por bramer (MA) 9/29/2004 08:07
I don't know what all this is about now... I've not seen him use the
words banana republic, if he did it must have been only for a short
while. Today the presentation shows a summary of his views on this
and there's nothing wrong with that. If he did call any country a
banana republic it was of course unfair, but the problem has
obviously solved itself while this has been discussed.

The question now is, is it blood you want or can we perhaps satisfy
with this being solved already and focus our energy on todays
problems? :-)

/Tobias


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por roncolho 9/29/2004 08:12
well. I give up too.

I'm with mundek. Life is not fair, MZ either.

If was a polish, brazilian, chinese or burkina faso's user who did
the same thing: Ban him your bad behaviour.

Oh man, he's swedish, hum, better, he's top sweedish...so how dare
you to think to punishing a top sweedish for bad behaviour?? Such a
thing can never happen.

So i'm guess i'm gonna take a beer, and stop worring as much with MZ
things.

The big guys will always be big guys, and the little shits will
always be little shits.

Sometimes things like this must happen to separate both sides big
guys X little shits, and to show us who is who, with is pretty clear
now.

I'm sorry to say mundek, but i'm guess you already realize that. We,
unfortunately, are the little shits.

Cheers.

/Otávio.


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por kevin_keagan 9/29/2004 08:30
Instead of giving us alot of generalized whining please post expicit
arguments, quotes, evidence on why Isidor should be fined - if you
do, and its sufficient, he sure will be fined. If not then he will
not be fined.. Hard to do ? No...


Sv: Important: Isidor Situation?
por bramer (MA) 9/29/2004 08:40
I've had just about enough of all this bullshit now, roncolho et al.
We are a team, I realize this, as do several others. We work for the
same cause. As GA's we must step outside of our duties as managers
and focus on our duties as GA's. Managing your teams has its own
time.

I'm tired of silly accusations of ANY country's GA trying to protect
its own members. If anything that would only be disadvantageous to
that GA as the competition increases in his own region.

We must stop this. There is a gap today between different staffs, I
agree to that, but in my opinion that gap is mostly because of
statements like "we are little shits". Stop this now and focus on
formulating your opinions in a mature and, more importantly,
creative manner. Discussions are fine, but what good would possible
come from arguments like those?



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por bergy1 9/29/2004 10:38
I asked isidor to remove his Hall of Fame - he has done so - despite
my opinion that it was a fun way of dealing with abuse - he has made
a statement that reflects his opinion in his wfo and has tried to
bridge the gap in attitiude and communication with some S American
managers - good on the guy.

We need to focus on the big issues and those have been stated
clearly and some are being worked on and others are I'm sure being
thought about.

In no order
1. A clear set of guidelines on tackling cheating across the board
and levels of sanctions
2. A staff code of conduct and disciplinary procedure
3. Measures that bridge the financial gulf between Sweden and other
countries
4. Ways of tackling transfer issues - a regulatory framework that
establishes fair and unfair trading.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por lofy 9/29/2004 10:54
I give up too...

It has become a great kidding with all of us.




Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por gubsoul (MA) 9/29/2004 12:47
Yes come on get your acts together.

Roncolho and others if you find a post where he is saying that, show
us, if he had it in his WFO you should have taken a screenshot.
as with any other member we need prof to convict, and nothing is
shown here to make me belive that he is a cheater, i personally have
gone though most of his transfers, and i cant find anything that
proves he is a cheater.

so instead of using all your energy on being angry do something
positiv. your teams will not get better by banning a top team from
sweden that has been in this game from the beginning.

there is two problems causing this rift at the moment, sweden has
its own cup wich genereates an unfair amout of income for a small
number of teams.
and the second problem is the so called swedish super players. but
the problem with the swedish super players is mostly that sweden
generates enough income to keep them inside sweden. so the first
problem is linked to this story completly.
I personally dont know how to solve it.
But im sure we can find solutions that will work if we work together
as a team.
So stop blaming one person try to ALL work together with finding a
good solution to this problem.


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por zebentao 9/29/2004 14:00
Can i add another problem to the ones metioned by you gubsoul?

There isnt a roof for earnings by the transfers, what seems
important and makes virtually impossible to reach the top teams, and
that allows the market to be inflationed...

Even with the salaries being more fair won't be enogh to counter-
balance the money created in each season by:
- New teams (that are abandoned after selling some players)
- Cups
- Coaches helping players to get more "balls" and inflationing their
values.
- Youths

Its urgent to get back a "maximum profit you can make in one season,
on the transfers"!!!!!!!


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por gubsoul (MA) 9/29/2004 19:53
- New teams (that are abandoned after selling some players)
if teams only do this it will remove money out of the game.

btw we will never be able to kill inflation, if we do that we will
kill the game.
but we will have to keep it as low as possible and every once and
awhile we will have to do something to tip the balance a bit around.



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por zebentao 9/29/2004 20:43
Gub, players are another for of money... And because taht each of
the new created players have alot to train, they will create money...

I dont see why cant we control the inflation without killing the
game...

Currently a team profit comes from:
- Games (all but cups)
- Cup games, that should be limited in the crowd even on the final
(make it 30.000, its better than infinite and that way its possible
to calculate the max amount a team can make in a cup)
- Tranfers (ilimited)

If we limit the amount of adepts in the cup games and if we put a
limit on the amount of money earned on selling players each season,
we would easily stop inflation, because a team couldnt make more
profit each season than all added...

Then there would be a risk that the game would become too static.
That would easily be sorted out if the cups were just what gives an
edge to the cup winners compared with the others...

The success in a cup not depends just on the players you have in
your team but also in luck and tactics, so the winners wouldnt be
allways the same one as we currently see...

So i dont understand how it would kill the game...



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por gubsoul (MA) 9/30/2004 15:20
if more money go out of the game then in at some time all teams will
be bankcrupt.

inflation is
money going in - money going out = positiv number.



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por roncolho 9/30/2004 22:18
Well, one brazilian user made an very interesting investigation
about 5 teams, so i asked him to translate for me, since i was
rather busy, and her we go:

_____________________________________________________

"The tranfers of Mr. X

At first, I'd like to say that I believe when people told me about
the innocence of Mr. X. But I still not understand some aspects
about his last transfers. Maybe someone here can help about the
connection between the five teams below:

A) BK Teknikerna, Div4.20, Sweden
B) IFK Västerås, Div5.20, Sweden
C) Zeus IF, Div6.87, Sweden
D) FC Gruchlandia, Div1.2, Poland
E) Team of the Mr.X, Main Division, Country Y

1. The teams "A", "B", "C" and "E" are Swedish and they started on
MZ basically in the same moth (may 2002). The team "D" is from
Poland and started 15 months after that because MZ there wasn't
working yet in this country at may 2002, of course;

2. All of them, excepting team "E" of the Mr.X have lost all seven
games in their leagues this season;

3. All of them, excepting team "E" of the Mr.X, have played only the
games of their leagues and some few friendlies;

4. All of them, excepting team "E" of the Mr.X, sold all their
players just to buy one, recently;

5. The team "A" sold all their players at July of this year. In this
occasion, the starplayer. John Öberg was sold to team "D": The same
team "D" that sold all their players at September 2004, including
the same John Öberg (got two months before) now sold to the team "E"
of the Mr.X;

Another interesting point is that the team "E" of the Mr.X has sold
four days before that other starplayer and two teams fought hardly
to get his player. Try to guess? They were the teams B and C that
sold all their players too.

P.S. – By the way, the three transfers above got almost 200 million
SEK


So, could you help me to understand the managers of these teams,
excepting team "E" of the Mr.X, of course… "
_______________________________________________

I know that this is not a conclusive evidence, but nobody can deny
it that is o LOT of coincidences...

/Otávio


Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por lofy 9/30/2004 22:54
Here, in Brazil, we have a famous saying:

"The worst blind, is that one, that doesn´t wants to see"

So, I just say to you, Otávio... "give up, my friend".



Odp: Important: Isidor Situation?
por mundek (GA) 10/1/2004 04:28
i just put some more fire, zeus IF was the team which bidded first,
and as i remember is banned now (zeus87 - login) im not checking him
rite now so i may be wrong.

but i must agree with lofy - give up :(((. swedish transfer are
allways big coincidences as highpriced transfer from the same IP -
me calls them friendly bids §5 , other calls it legal transfers, but
if its legal its legal, must give up and do our job, in 2-3 month we
will back to this topic when some1 else will bid 200mln SEK :)



Re: Important: Isidor Situation?
por gubsoul (MA) 10/1/2004 08:51
Another saying here in Denmark is: people who steal sees thieves all
around them.